Imperial VS Stormcloak

[SurfingNerd82]

I know how many threads have been released over numerous sites about this, and personally I hate that I'm making another one about it... yet none of the responses so far has given me a solid reason to help end the civil war siding with one or another (in fact it made it worse), I'm playing as a redguard.

 

The Imperial legion is indeed, a shadow of its former self. The emperor is a fake, and a weakling, not to mention he is not dragonborn. They are puppets of the Altmer, yet at the same time they want a united Empire against the Altmer. Still I believe a people should govern itself, unity is one thing, imperialism is another.

 

Then we have the stormcloaks, a bunch of racist bigots with a leader who I don't even particularly like. Not to mention siding with them risks the Thalmor overruning Skyrim while it is weak. Still, it IS Skyrim, the land of the nords, and they refuse oppression, and hammerfell also revolted against the empire and held their own... making the stormcloaks a viable choice for my redguard.

 

But my redguard dislikes how elves are treated ingame by the stormcloaks... ARGH... I have to say this has been the hardest decision I had to make in a game. I need your help, please post your opinions! And help convince me to side one or the other!

yeah i can feel with you, thats the reason why i dit not join one of those 2 options.

I really would love a mod, where you can make up your own rebellion, und nuke the racists and the brainless imperial followers down :)

Or just a mod, witch ends in Peace or something else...

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Your character is Ysmir. You are named by the Grey Beards. Within the Lore of TES the Septims were able to hold the Empire together unlike the Mede's. It's a change in rulers. Thus a different Empire. The Septims fought many battles. Many Civil wars within the Empire and managed to hold it together. Thats why I make that claim about the Septims. They were the Dragonborn rulers. They could rally the troops like Martin did. They could and did hold the Empire together. Some nearly destroyed it but they were rulers blessed by Akatosh.

 

With the Septims in power their would not have been a Great War. Immediately after the Oblivion crisis ended the Empire was weakened. Not only from fighting the Daedric hordes but also losing Black Marsh, Valenwood, Elsweyr, and Summerset Isles. This weakened the Empire. And in between those times there was another interregnum.

 

And the Mede's very much did give in to the AD. The WGC. He didnt have to sign it, he could have at least demanded better terms. The Empire could have continued the fight and chose not to. The Nords in the Legion never claimed to have wanted to end the war, although the people of Cyrodiil did. It's understandable to want peace at that point but not at that cost.

 

Your character is the avatar the Gods sent down. Talos is here now. The Gods are acting now. Obviously it was in the Elder Scrolls that this was meant to happen and the gods cant change that.

Edited March 29, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Kayyyleb, on 29 Mar 2013 - 11:38, said:

 

HighkingUlfricStormcloak, on 29 Mar 2013 - 10:29, said:

 

No, this is the Mede dynasty, Talos did not found this Empire. He founded the Septim Empire. The Septims would have never given in to the Thalmor, they would have never lost provinces, they wouldn't have lost the Great War either.

 

A True Son or Daughter of Skyrim wont give in to tyranny even if it means to stay with the Empire, in the Dossier the Thalmor say that a Stormcloak Victory is to be avoided. They want the war to continue in an indecisive fashion not one victory over the other.

 

Talos is Shor, the King of the Gods in the Nordic Pantheon. His is the patron god of mankind.

 

The Stormcloaks revive Talos worship and kick the Thalmor out of Skyrim.

 

Plus, Skyrim cant simply be taken over.

 

"The Emperor is getting old. Don't know how much longer he'll hang on. So is the whole Empire, for that matter. Getting old, that is. The Emperor and the legions have held the Empire together for hundreds of years. It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new. What? No idea. Because I'm old. Old dog doesn't get new ideas. But maybe young folks like you should try some new ideas. I don't know. Could be messy. But change is never pretty." - Wulf (Avatar of Talos) Morrowind

 

Even Talos thinks its time for Change. This is in TES: III Morrowind.

You have virtually no evidence for any of these claims.

 

The Medes didn't give into the Thalmor either. They fought back with everything they had. Thus the Great War. There's nothing to back the assertion that the Septims wouldn't lose the war either. Having a different last name doesn't change jack about the performance of troops on the battlefield. There were plenty of crap Septims too so they weren't these superhuman demigods you make them out to be, but the Empire endured for centuries despite this. The emperor and especially his last name is far less relevant than you seem to think it is. If TMII was a Septim and he was forced into the same situation TMII was then how do you know things would suddenly turn out completely different? Do the Septims have the magical power to pull 10,000 troops out of a hat?

 

Since the American founding fathers who wrote our constitution are dead does that give us the right to divide the country into 50 separate entities simply because the guys that originally started it are gone? Hell no.

 

Talos, the patron god of humanity of whatever is useless. I'm sorry. During the last war all his followers banded together to fight the Thalmor and where was he? Not helping out, not doing anything at all actually. I think Talos' opinion can be disregarded. If he wants mankind to worship him then maybe he should do something to help them out so he actually deserves it.

 

Im sorry but the parallel made about the American Democracy doesnt really apply. It's a democracy where anyone can become the leader but with the Empire it's hereditary. So if a new line of people take over it's a change in ruling. The Elder Scrolls cant be changed, not even by the gods.

 

Skyrim cant be taken. Ill tell you why.

 

When it comes to an invasion of Skyrim the problem is the terrain. A pass is a choke point in which the invading army would have to move through the pass and force your troops to move into a column. In which case the Stormcloaks have shown they know how to use guerrilla tactics, by using these tactics if the AD's army is moving in a column through the narrow pass it makes it easier for the Stormcloaks to attack the column using hit and run tactics. Which would dwindle the resources of the AD's army down to almost nothing. The fact that its nearly always snowing in the passes proves that it makes it harder to move a large force through the pass. There’s no way for the AD to take the high ground because of the jagged, rocky mountains. The Nords know the mountains and the land better than the AD, they have been living there for generations. Moral of the AD would decrease and the soldiers wouldn’t be as hard pressed to continue moving. They would also be tired. They would be constantly chasing the Nords through the mountains and not be as focused on gaining a foothold in the pass. The Nords could take the time and sit by and let the army starve. If the AD made it through the pass (Which as I have explained would be very difficult, not impossible but hard) they would maybe take a fort, like fort Neugrad. Then they would need to gain the resources lost back and have to rebuild and possibly need reinforcements. Which would also give the Nords time to pick at the remaining soldiers and dwindle them down even further in number. This wouldn’t take that many Nords. Maybe a few hundred. I’m going to assume that the AD has several thousands of soldiers. The Nords I’m assuming (Game logistics aside) have a few thousand soldiers. Using part of their force would be enough to deplete the moral of the advancing army. Attacking via the hills, hit and run tactics would be the best choice. Hit the AD's army and making them chase the Nords into the hills where they can be ambushed by more forces. The Nords could also use the land itself against them. They could block off the pass and force the army to halt and clear the pass then ambush them. These are examples of things the Nords could do. The Celts did this to the Romans.

 

Now, for a sea invasion. If the AD's army were to attack via the sea of ghosts, they have to travel through arctic waters which is no picnic. Then they must gain a beachhead. Which there are several places they can do this but not for a large force. They would need to spread the forces out for several landings that would need to occur simultaneously. Then they could rendezvous at any given location large enough to support the numbers. Then during this time the Nords can, once again, use guerrilla tactics to halt the AD forces. If the AD successfully gains a beachhead the Nords could just barrage them with a large force. Initially, they could just attack supply lines and starve the AD's army but let’s pretend for a moment that the Nords do not do this. The AD has an established beachhead and a steady supply line. They could funnel reinforcements and establish a strong presence in Skyrim. The Nords have shown in the past that they can destroy large forces due to military prowess. The Nords know their land and aren’t so willing to allow someone else to invade it. Also the Nords are capable seamen which would allow them to harass the AD’s navy, not necessarily full on attacks but at least harass the supply ships making the moral of the AD’s army decrease.

 

Thats assuming they make it through Cyrodiil, Hammerfell and Morrowind and can keep a steady naval supply line. They have to travel through provinces that hate them.

Edited March 29, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[SunKiller]

Quote

You have virtually no evidence for any of these claims.

 

The Medes didn't give into the Thalmor either. They fought back with everything they had. Thus the Great War. There's nothing to back the assertion that the Septims wouldn't lose the war either. Having a different last name doesn't change jack about the performance of troops on the battlefield. There were plenty of crap Septims too so they weren't these superhuman demigods you make them out to be, but the Empire endured for centuries despite this. The emperor and especially his last name is far less relevant than you seem to think it is. If TMII was a Septim and he was forced into the same situation TMII was then how do you know things would suddenly turn out completely different? Do the Septims have the magical power to pull 10,000 troops out of a hat?

 

Since the American founding fathers who wrote our constitution are dead does that give us the right to divide the country into 50 separate entities simply because the guys that originally started it are gone? Hell no.

Agreed. Even though I am a Stormcloak, I find both Titus Mede II and Ulfric in the wrong. Titus Mede for signing that damn treaty and Ulfric for trying to secede from Talos' Empire. Although, end of the day I still hold with Ulfric's ideals. Still, they are both wrong because the Thalmor get what they want either way. We can only hope for a third solution later on down the line. But putting people in cages, to allow persecution based solely on someone's faith and giving license to a foreign power to enforce it's will against *your* people inside your very borders is insane. The question is, will this madness continue once Titus Mede II abdicates his throne? If it does, the Empire is dead, you can say what you will but an Empire which conducts business in this fashion surely will not last, it cannot last. Nevermind Skyrim, what if they started doing this sh*t in Highrock and what's left of Morrowind. Yeah, exactly. Although, the Empire has been down this dark road before with Emperor Pelagius the mad and Potema the Wolf Queen, who did horrible things and were 10x worse than Titus Mede II ever thought about being. The Empire was able to come back from them I suppose. We'll have to wait and see.

Edited March 29, 2013 by SunKiller

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

You dont have to support Ulfric to be a Stormcloak. So I have no problem with that. I like him because I look at him differently than most, but thats just me.

[SunKiller]

You dont have to support Ulfric to be a Stormcloak. So I have no problem with that. I like him because I look at him differently than most, but thats just me.

 

Agreed. I actually like Ulfric, I get him. It's just I think he should have took a stab at Diplomacy first, but whatever. lol Diplomacy is what got us where we are today. XD

[sisterof]

personally I think Beth did a great job on the quests.

if you think about it, even LotR is a very simple quest. take this item to a location and throw it in a volcano. you don't even need to return for the quest to complete. but LotR is about the journey, not the destination.

[...]

because these feelings are deep rooted, no one is going to change their mind reading through one of these threads but it is great fun taking part in them :biggrin:

 

A situation that I do not think is unusual for many players and that suggests to me that some do become quite involved with the game (on a number of levels) and take a great deal of pleasure in generally wallowing in their own imagination and fantasy. I would think there are many players who look up after playing what felt like a few minutes only to realize that hours have passed.

 

If the game was as mechanical and poorly written as has been suggested by a number of persons and took effort to become involved with it, I doubt many would have played it more than a few hours before abandoning it to boredom. As said by the mighty zog, it isn't the destination - it's the journey that matters and the way one fills in the details. To be lost in a game for hours and hours, one must be placing a whole lot of details into it.

Oh, I do not mean that Skyrim is terribly written, but it's far, far, faaaar from a masterpiece in terms of writing. I too agree that the quest doesn't need to be something filled with grandiose (LotR is delightful and it's all about throwing a ring in a volcano). The journey is what matters - but Skyrim doesn't offer much of a journey either. It offers absolutely no meaningful dialogue. All companions are cardboard cut. You don't even have many choices of your own voice - the kind of answer you give and so on. All tone in answers are 97% in the player's mind.

 

It does give you material to make your own story, in your head, about what you're doing. Play a game like Mass Effect and see the difference - Skyrim is a sandbox game, it gives you a few elements and then you have freedom to roam. Things that happen to your character are totally disconnected - Guards mocking your Speechcraft regardless of your status as Dragonborn, Galmar wanting you to get a goddamned Ice Wraith even if you defeated Alduin and so on. Bethesda gives us a hell lot of amazing dots, but it's the player who connects them with their own imagination.

 

"If the game was that poorly written, few people would have played it so intensely." Don't underestimate just how much imagination the average person has. :wink:

 

As for mighty zog's "nobody will change their minds" - it would be awesome if everyone could play an Imperial and a Stormcloak, even having a personal preference. I'm trying to make my Dunmer thief completely anti-Stormcloak (and having quite a hard time), so this thread is precious to develop him coherently.

Edited March 29, 2013 by sisterof

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I have done the Imperial quest like 5 times. I do it to get Ulfrics armor. But then I found out you can kill Thane Bryling and get the same armor. I mainly am a noble warrior though. But I love being an Orc or a Dunmer.

[Kayyyleb]

Skyrim cant be taken. Ill tell you why.

-.-

 

Did I not just state why that is irrelevant? Using the same copy-pasted "mountain passes result in total victory for defenders 100% of the time" argument every time this comes up is annoying and has no bearing on anything I said.

 

The Empire falls. Cyrodiil is crushed and occupied, Hammerfell falls sooner or later after that. Skyrim hides behind those mountain ranges you love to talk about. End result is humanity loses and the Thalmor is the virtually uncontested superpower in Tamriel except for the Nords chanting "na na na na you can't get us!" from inside their mountain passes. The rest of Tamriel live under the heel of Thalmor oppression being treated just as badly as they were under the Ayleids.

 

That's a loss.

 

Now if you want Skyrim to suddenly become grand heroes who strut across Tamriel kicking the Thalmor's asses you have to get rid of your mountain pass defense because then the Thalmor are on the defensive and the ball is in their court. You put a lot of effort into giving your side every advantage you can imagine but you never seem to realize it doesn't work like that.

Edited March 29, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[Kayyyleb]

 

Quote

You have virtually no evidence for any of these claims.

 

The Medes didn't give into the Thalmor either. They fought back with everything they had. Thus the Great War. There's nothing to back the assertion that the Septims wouldn't lose the war either. Having a different last name doesn't change jack about the performance of troops on the battlefield. There were plenty of crap Septims too so they weren't these superhuman demigods you make them out to be, but the Empire endured for centuries despite this. The emperor and especially his last name is far less relevant than you seem to think it is. If TMII was a Septim and he was forced into the same situation TMII was then how do you know things would suddenly turn out completely different? Do the Septims have the magical power to pull 10,000 troops out of a hat?

 

Since the American founding fathers who wrote our constitution are dead does that give us the right to divide the country into 50 separate entities simply because the guys that originally started it are gone? Hell no.

Agreed. Even though I am a Stormcloak, I find both Titus Mede II and Ulfric in the wrong. Titus Mede for signing that damn treaty and Ulfric for trying to secede from Talos' Empire. Although, end of the day I still hold with Ulfric's ideals. Still, they are both wrong because the Thalmor get what they want either way. We can only hope for a third solution later on down the line. But putting people in cages, to allow persecution based solely on someone's faith and giving license to a foreign power to enforce it's will against *your* people inside your very borders is insane. The question is, will this madness continue once Titus Mede II abdicates his throne? If it does, the Empire is dead, you can say what you will but an Empire which conducts business in this fashion surely will not last, it cannot last. Nevermind Skyrim, what if they started doing this sh*t in Highrock and what's left of Morrowind. Yeah, exactly. Although, the Empire has been down this dark road before with Emperor Pelagius the mad and Potema the Wolf Queen, who did horrible things and were 10x worse than Titus Mede II ever thought about being. The Empire was able to come back from them I suppose. We'll have to wait and see.

Exactly. The Empire under the Septims was never this pipe dream of perfection that anti-Mede people paint it as. The Septims screwed up BAD many times and the Empire still survived.