Imperial VS Stormcloak

[MightyZ0G]

it might not be a Septim on the throne but according to the Lore, it isn't a Mede any longer (unless another illegitimate offspring emerges) but there will always be someone who is next in line or has some kind of claim to the throne.

if no other candidate is found then it could well be the High King of Skyrim who steps up to lead the Empire but that is much more difficult if the High King is Ulfric.

but regardless of who it is, it is still the same Empire as the one that Talos founded and for all the faults of the Medes, Titus did manage to hold the Empire together after Martin Septim gave his life to save Tamriel so he couldn't have been that bad.

 

as said, most people believe that the Empire needs a change and an infusion of new blood, but TMII has been assassinated and the door is open for that to happen.

 

as for Skyrim being almost impossible to conquer, the Nords invaded it successfully when they first came to Tamriel in 500 boats. the Forsworn took the Reach and then Ulfric took it back.

the Thalmor have a base on the coast of Skyrim and they could invade Skyrim by sea, or just make the threat great enough that the Nords have to spread themselves thin to guard all the passes as well as all the unprotected coast.

either way, Skyrim is better served by staying Imperial so that the borders with Cyrodiil, High Rock and Morrowind don't need to be guarded so heavily as they are all part of the Empire and Hammerfell should stay relatively neutral so the Empire can focus on just the external borders and have it's back covered.

if Elisif was to become Queen of Skyrim and Empress of Tamriel it is possible that Hammerfell could rejoin the Empire.

 

in the long run, Man's only hope is for all the provinces to remain united and to keep the Orsimer and Dunmer on side and that is a much harder proposition with Ulfric ruling Skyrim. but as I said before, looking from outside the game it seems most likely that the Empire's weakened, state after the Stormcloak Rebellion and assassination of the Emperor and at least 1 of his relatives, will result in the Dominion conquering all of Tamriel regardless of who wins the civil war as that seems to be the easiest way for the Lore to be tied up and then TESVI can start with the Dominion ruling all of Tamriel with all men reduced to living in the wilds like the Foresworn and your character starting in chains.

 

given that the outcome of the civil war won't really matter in the long run (Beth know that the majority want to take the war to the Thalmor regardless of whether they are Imperial or Stormcloak and will have to make that possible without causing contradictions) people will always have a side they think is right, even if they play through both sides of the quest to explore the options and get their money's worth, 1 side will be right in their eyes and no amount of argument or discussion will make them change their minds. you might as well try to convert a Jehovah's Witness to Satanism.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Kayyyleb, on 29 Mar 2013 - 14:28, said:

 

HighkingUlfricStormcloak, on 29 Mar 2013 - 11:58, said:

Skyrim cant be taken. Ill tell you why.

-.-

 

Did I not just state why that is irrelevant? Using the same copy-pasted "mountain passes result in total victory for defenders 100% of the time" argument every time this comes up is annoying and has no bearing on anything I said.

 

The Empire falls. Cyrodiil is crushed and occupied, Hammerfell falls sooner or later after that. Skyrim hides behind those mountain ranges you love to talk about. End result is humanity loses and the Thalmor is the virtually uncontested superpower in Tamriel except for the Nords chanting "na na na na you can't get us!" from inside their mountain passes. The rest of Tamriel live under the heel of Thalmor oppression being treated just as badly as they were under the Ayleids.

 

That's a loss.

 

Now if you want Skyrim to suddenly become grand heroes who strut across Tamriel kicking the Thalmor's asses you have to get rid of your mountain pass defense because then the Thalmor are on the defensive and the ball is in their court. You put a lot of effort into giving your side every advantage you can imagine but you never seem to realize it doesn't work like that.

 

The thing is, the Stormcloaks are planning an invasion of Summerset Isles. Skyrim cannot be taken, that you havent argued. The Thalmor will try to take Skyrim if the Nords plan on using their natural defenses against the AD. The Thalmor will do this because they are bent on ruling Tamriel. So the Nords are planning a surprise invasion of Alinor and will catch the dominion off guard. They are posting their armies on the border in Valenwood so they will have to move their forces into Alinor, Im not saying Alinor is defenseless but the majority of their forces are away from where the Nords plan on attacking. So this will result in a battle with the odds evened a bit. The Nords know how to use their shields to block magic and wont be "Utterly destroyed" against the dominion. They proved this in the Great War. The Nords arent a bunch of large, unintelligent barbarians. They have battled elven kind for thousands of years. "Most of Skyrim's Nords harbor a bitter resentment of all elven kind, whom they've battles throughout the ages." - Loading screen.

 

I use the same "copied and pasted" argument because why would I want to type it out when I have it saved on a word document. And I really dont care if its annoying or not.

 

Hammerfell showed that they can repel an invasion from the Dominion. Hammerfell was in a civil war before the Great War, then they fought the Dominion in the Great War, then they fought them afterwards and forced them to withdraw from Hammerfell completely. So who's to say they would just fall all the sudden. They've had 30 years to recover, and now they are a prosperous nation. And if the Dominion is as strong as people think they are, why havent they re-invaded Hammerfell and taken over?

 

Last time it took everything the Dominion had to take the Imperial city, then they have to march into Skyrim while the Nords have been gathering their strength to attack or defend. So even if Cyrodiil falls, the Dominion wont just waltz up to Skyrim and take over. Plus House Redoran of Morrowind is fond of Skyrim and dislikes the Empire and Dominion. So they also have Morrowind to consider. Yes, the Dunmer are not the Strongest nation but they can muster an army when they need to. As shown by house Redoran during the Oblivion crisis, and the Argonian invasion.

 

Also Black Marsh is a wild card, they may not be initially hostile but they would take advantage of the situation if it were to benefit them in anyway.

 

Hammerfell and Skyrim could potentially have an alliance as seen in Luah al - Skaven's journal. So there is now two forces fighting the Dominion. Plus the AD does plan on destroying the Empire, they refer to the Great War as the "First war with the Empire." So that inclines another war with Cyrodiil. A 3 front war, one the Dominion could not and will not win.

 

And Skyrim is mans homeland so if Skyrim were left out of the picture than the AD still doesnt rule all of Tamriel. The Nords hate the AD, Im giving the defense argument because the phrase "The Empire is the only thing keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim." Is wrong. The Empire is the only thing keeping the Dominion in Skyrim.

 

Skyrim is a powerful nation. It has been for all its existence under Nord control. And Im sure it was under the Control of the Elves.

Edited March 30, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I will never give up freedom for a chance at life. That's what siding with the Empire is doing. Life is being put as the top priority rather than freedom.

 

Tullius or any other Imperial never makes mention that the empire, will, without a doubt fight the Dominion. Or that they are truly going to be strong enough to fight them.

 

If they want to be strong enough it will mean they will, once again, have to leave every other province and focus them in Cyrodiil, This, last time, caused resentment for the Empire in Morrowind.

 

And yes, the Nords did invade with the the 500 Companions. They are named such, not because there is 500 of them but because of the 500 shields broken in Saarthal. They Nords waged a war for many, many years against the Falmer and Dwemer. They invaded via the Sea, which was a surprise to the Elves, they thought they Drove the Nords out forever.

 

If the Dominion invades via the sea, they will have to keep a steady supply line through the arctic waters and also have to deal with the Nordic navy which could harass them, that would preoccupy some of the Naval forces. Hammerfell could also harass them. If they gain a foothold, the Nords will be there to meet them. They Nords could just pounce on the freshly arrived army and just rush an attack. Or they could wait and let the Thalmor come to them. Then they could have guerrillas attack them as they traveled through Skyrim. Then they would meet full force in some large pasture or field. And then the AD would have better odds. I see the Dominion attacking, but the Stormcloaks are planning an invasion so . . . . how the next war will turn out, we dont know.

 

And the Thalmor have been driven out of Skyrim when the Stormcloaks win. Only with the Imperials are the Thalmor bases occupied by Elves.

Edited March 29, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

 

 

 

 

Quote

You have virtually no evidence for any of these claims.

 

The Medes didn't give into the Thalmor either. They fought back with everything they had. Thus the Great War. There's nothing to back the assertion that the Septims wouldn't lose the war either. Having a different last name doesn't change jack about the performance of troops on the battlefield. There were plenty of crap Septims too so they weren't these superhuman demigods you make them out to be, but the Empire endured for centuries despite this. The emperor and especially his last name is far less relevant than you seem to think it is. If TMII was a Septim and he was forced into the same situation TMII was then how do you know things would suddenly turn out completely different? Do the Septims have the magical power to pull 10,000 troops out of a hat?

 

Since the American founding fathers who wrote our constitution are dead does that give us the right to divide the country into 50 separate entities simply because the guys that originally started it are gone? Hell no.

Agreed. Even though I am a Stormcloak, I find both Titus Mede II and Ulfric in the wrong. Titus Mede for signing that damn treaty and Ulfric for trying to secede from Talos' Empire. Although, end of the day I still hold with Ulfric's ideals. Still, they are both wrong because the Thalmor get what they want either way. We can only hope for a third solution later on down the line. But putting people in cages, to allow persecution based solely on someone's faith and giving license to a foreign power to enforce it's will against *your* people inside your very borders is insane. The question is, will this madness continue once Titus Mede II abdicates his throne? If it does, the Empire is dead, you can say what you will but an Empire which conducts business in this fashion surely will not last, it cannot last. Nevermind Skyrim, what if they started doing this sh*t in Highrock and what's left of Morrowind. Yeah, exactly. Although, the Empire has been down this dark road before with Emperor Pelagius the mad and Potema the Wolf Queen, who did horrible things and were 10x worse than Titus Mede II ever thought about being. The Empire was able to come back from them I suppose. We'll have to wait and see.

Exactly. The Empire under the Septims was never this pipe dream of perfection that anti-Mede people paint it as. The Septims screwed up BAD many times and the Empire still survived.

 

 

They never had to deal with economic instability - Civil unrest - crime and drug wars - Rebelling provinces - another Empire's aggression on its front door - possibly no heir to the throne (Oh wait thats what got Titus Mede I in power, the Stormcrown Interregnum.) - Losing trade and income with other provinces. All at the same time.

 

Look at the facts, The Empire has never been in this bad of shape and this is how Empires fall. You're denying it by not acknowledging the facts of whats happening in Cyrodiil. "The Empire is spread thin trying to keep the peace." - Brina Merelis. (an ex Imperial Captain)

 

The Nords are not spread thin trying to hold Skyrim. That is just not true, I dont see anywhere where this is made as a point in lore or in game. I say the Empire is spread thin if they win in Skyrim because they have to be in Skyrim and Cyrodiil, which by the look of it means they are spread thin.

 

The Stormcloaks may not be the apex of perfection but they are a lot better than the Imperials.

Edited March 29, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[LithiumPower]

We can see a clear pattern since Martin Septim's death of the Empire safeguarding the centre at the cost of the provinces. They withdrew forces from Summerset Isle and Morrowind in the beginning, leaving both vulnerable to Thalmor and Argonian advances. It then ignored Valenwood and Elswyer, allowing both to fall to Thalmor machinations. So, even before the start of the Great War, the Empire is down to four provinces - Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, High Rock and Skyrim.

 

Great War begins, Cyrodiil is attacked - and Titus Mede recalls legions fighting in Hammerfell to defend Cyrodiil. Because Cyrodiil is devastated, Titus Mede decides unilaterally without consulting Skyrim or Hammerfell that they are not going to fight any more, selling both down the river to secure peace with the Thalmor.

 

Hammerfell rebels and is renounced. Skyrim starts to rebel. The southern part of Cyrodiil (furthest from the centre and long neglected) falls to unrest and lawlessness - Bravil, Cheydinhal. Cicero's journals tell us that High Rock is also troubled.

 

You would have to be completely blind not to see that the influence of the Empire is shrinking decade by decade, city by city until only IC remains. It's a text book collapse.

 

It's not going to majestically renew from its own ashes - that's not what happened when Martin Septim died - Titus Mede I rose as a conqueror in Colovia, took control of the Imperial City and declared himself emperor. Hammerfell is not going to throw in their lot with an obviously shrinking/collapsing Empire that can't even guarantee law and order in its own cities. Neither should Skyriim.

 

The Thalmor are not chewing at their bits to invade - they are playing the divide and cripple game because they don't have manpower to front another invasion - their armies were annihilated.

 

There has to be another power that takes over the Empire to lead Tamriel anew. Maybe a dlc will declare it to be the Dragonborn. Maybe there'll be another enantiomorph between the dragonborn, Ulfric and Tullius and a new Lorkhan deity will take Talos' place in the pantheon I can't say. It's far more likely that with Skyrim liberated, Cyrodill's disintegration will follow. Cheydinhal, Chorrol and Bruma are likely going to fall under Skyrim's influence and then become annexed. Anvil and Skingrad will become absorbed into Hammerfell. Bravil and Leyawiin will come under Thalmor influence but the Mede Empire is literally dead. They created 200 years of lore to firmly establish the collapse and then finally killed Titus Mede in the game (doesn't matter if your DB didn't do it, it was still accomplished by an anonymous listener as per Bethesda's traditional way of dealing with sidequests).

 

The basic theme of the whole series is 'The Fall of the Empire'. As far back as Morrowind, they've been building up to it, hinting towards this inevitability. See the Talos avatar character Wulf's lines. Lots of dialogue in Oblivion establishes how unrest is growing in the peripheral provinces in contrast to the wealth and decadence of the centre and now finally we are witnessing its death throes in Skyrim.

 

You would have to ignore real world history, you would have to ignore TES history, you would have to ignore the themes in at least three previous games to argue that the Empire is magically going to be restored if only Ulfric is killed and by then you might as well argue that the new emperor will be Doctor Who in the Tardis.

[sisterof]

Aaand I'd like to point out yet again that the Empire always had a supernatural reason for existing, and since Martin Septim there are no Dragonfires to be lit. All dynasties had been blessed by the Divines until the Septims, so whatever we have now is a purely political entity, not a sacred institution.

Since the First Empire was founded to fight the Elves, I can see the rise of a next one if the Thalmor issue becomes great enough for a whole new game (I hope so, even though it's gonna be painful to wait so long for resolution). But it will be a new emperor chosen by the Gods, who will unify all the provinces again, and will have nothing to do with this current empire we have. It would even make more sense if all the provinces became independent, the Empire dissolved, and we have a new warchief unifying everything from zero. I see the current Empire as a moribund, defective institution with no plans to stand up against the Dominion, and making Skyrim vulnerable by letting the Thalmor grow roots in it (they even have a military base!). All our talk about Skyrim being easy or hard to invade make little sense if the Empire is letting the Thalmor have a presence in the land anyway.

It would be awesome if the Dragonborn, Ulfric and Tullius became similar to Tiber Septim/Underking/Who was his name again, I would love to see a single entity holding the three. But unfortunately Tullius didn't get the same level of character development as Ulfric, we know nearly nothing of him other than "he's a dutiful servant of the Empire". The only flash of personality we had was in the final battle for the Stormcloaks, because he chose to surrender. We know nothing else of him, and it's a pity, he becomes quite a plain character if compared to the attention Ulfric's writing received. I would love to have this triad bickering into godhood together.

Maybe what we'll get is unrelated DLCs (which would be weird since the moot isn't supposed to take years to be called), and then a new game with the Dominion as the great power. And the Dragonborn, with all his power and et cetera, got swept out of the board because of reasons. Maybe something along the lines of "the Thalmor did something against Lorkhan/Shor and the Dragonborn went to Sovngarde to solve the issue and never returned". Alas, I wanted to keep playing a demi-god. :confused:

Edited March 30, 2013 by sisterof

[MightyZ0G]

I laugh every time I see the phrase "the Empire is spread thin having to be in Skyrim"

look at the Imperial soldiers, the majority are Nords. they aren't from Cyrodiil or High Rock, they are locals who support the Empire.

the difference in how thin they are spread is whether they have to defend the borders with Skyrim as well as the Borders with the Dominion or just those latter external borders.

if the Empire stays together then High Rock and Cyrodiil don't have to have a massive presence in Skyrim.

the Thalmor's puppet has been dealt with and the rebellion quelled and Nords will defend Skyrim, Bretons and Orsimer will defend High Rock and Imperials will defend Cyrodiil. this seems to be equal to the outcome if the Stormcloaks win but the difference is that if it is all part of the Empire, the possible battle front is around the coast and more men can be spared to defend it rather than around the entire province.

 

The Dominion would probably leave Cyrodiil and High Rock alone, assassinate Ulfric and take Skyrim with a coastal invasion while it is still reeling after the civil war (and don't forget that only a percentage of the population actually support Ulfric and up to 50% could actually seek refuge in High Rock or Cyrodiil if the Thalmor do invade rather than remain in Skyrim so that would help the remains of the Empire but make defending Skyrim harder)

 

@Lithium Flower. the discussion falls into 2 categories.

within the game and outside the game.

outside the game we can see the inevitable collapse of the Empire but from the inside, which is what we make our role playing choices on, the Empire is not dead and really does have a better chance against the Dominion than the Provinces do if they stand against them individually without mutual support. we don't know that the future has already been written and have no idea about how the game's designers intend the story to pan out.

outside the game it is a pretty safe bet that between the last of the TESV DLC and the beginning of TESVI, the Dominion will conquer all of Tamriel with, probably, Hammerfell as the only Province of Man not under Thalmor rule. we can make that prediction because we are aware that this is a fiction that follows a narrative imperative and certain things have to happen for the different possible choices within each game to come together so that the history is the same for everyone starting the next game. we can make pretty informed guesses about what those conditions will be at the start of TESVI as we can look at how Beth have handled it in the past.

[Amoryenar]

Personally I quite like Talos. He's quite obviously a divine.

 

I think we should wipe out the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

sorry if this doesn't strike anyone as very persuasive, as I have dropped all my persuasive tools somewhere else.

 

I've played the Stormcloak side so many times, it's time for a change. Someone, give me a good reason to join the Imperials, please.

 

I also like Khajiits. so the dominion is a vile thing in my eyes.

Edited March 30, 2013 by Amoryenar

[TheLoreSeeker]

Personally I quite like Talos. He's quite obviously a divine.

 

I think we should wipe out the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

sorry if this doesn't strike anyone as very persuasive, as I have dropped all my persuasive tools somewhere else.

 

I've played the Stormcloak side so many times, it's time for a change. Someone, give me a good reason to join the Imperials, please.

 

I also like Khajiits. so the dominion is a vile thing in my eyes.

 

The opening of the game is set up to make you feel like Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are the better side (as the Imperials are trying to kill you.)

 

But then you slowly come to realize that the Stormcloaks aren't Robin Hood rebels....and that the Empire isn't "Palpatine Level" evil.

[Kayyyleb]

I laugh every time I see the phrase "the Empire is spread thin having to be in Skyrim"

look at the Imperial soldiers, the majority are Nords. they aren't from Cyrodiil or High Rock, they are locals who support the Empire.

the difference in how thin they are spread is whether they have to defend the borders with Skyrim as well as the Borders with the Dominion or just those latter external borders.

if the Empire stays together then High Rock and Cyrodiil don't have to have a massive presence in Skyrim.

Not to mention most of the "peacekeeping" is necessary because of the rebels who in turn use it as an excuse to rebel. It's like robbing a bank so you can get a job there as a security guard.