Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Kayyyleb]

 

Freedom is worthless to dead people.

I want to quote you on that. I think that EVERY time someone throws up the "I'd rather fight to be free than put up with tyranny" argument.

 

Feel free. :)

 

I'd like to point out that neither side should be using the upcoming DLC in their arguments though. We know next to nothing about it except the baseless rumors flying around. If it does turn out to affect the Civil War or conflict with the Thalmor then we can bring it into the discussion after it's been released but until then it should be taken with a grain of salt.

[LithiumPower]

That would be nice :/

 

I have heard nothing solid about the so called Redguard DLC. I would appreciate links to information.

 

Why would Hammerfell re-join the Empire that first recalled their legion from defence of their homes, then surrendered half their territory to the Thalmor, then renounced them when they protested?

 

When and if a DLC comes out to add further to the civil war we can talk about it - bringing speculation into this discourse does not further either position.

 

This is your opinion and personal feelings? :/ And I have noticed that many of your points, hehehe, even in your Stormlcoak summary are speculative.

 

 

You're right. I remember that journal. The thing is, they can only hate the Empire to an extent. I mean, let's face it, Titus Mede II turned his back on Hammerfell, not the Empire. Esp the Imperial Legion saved Hammerfell. The Alik'r though brave were falling on their face until the Legion led the march to liberate Hammerfell. Only then were the Alik'r able to turn things around with the Imperials drawing agro. Without the Imperial Legion staying behind to help, Hammerfell would have surely either fallen or lost it's Southern half. I'm sure not all the Redguard hate the Empire.

 

I'm not sure what about my comes across as my personal feelings. The history between the Empire and Hammerfell is very well covered in The Great War where most of my information on the events of the war is drawn.

 

Which of the points in my Stormcloak argument seem like speculation to you, I'm perfectly happy to discuss any point and defend my position or adjust it as necessary.

 

On the last point, the legion is synonymous with the Emperor in office. They are sworn to the service of the emperor as individuals and the institution is an arm of his government. While an individual soldier's loyalty might waver, the institution itself is a tool of the emperor. This stands in marked contrast to a militia raised to fight for their freedom - while they may have sworn fealty to Ulfric, they will not hesitate to cut his throat were he to give in to tyranny - they know that they can fight and win their freedom.

 

The legion presence in Hammerfell (the Hammerfell Legion) was headed by Commander Decianus and we know that every provincial legion is largely drawn from the people of that area. This is evident from the make up of the legion in Skyrim and the legion in Cyrodiil as seen in Oblivion, therefore it follows that the legion in Hammerfell consisted largely of redguard troops. When the Emperor recalled the legion, it is logical to assume many of those redguard troops did not want to abandon their home to advancing Dominion forces. General Decianus sympathised with these men and discharged them as 'invalids'. (Why would he discharge them at all if they were willing to march to Cyrodiil with him?) He did this in defiance of his orders to march to the defence of Cyrodiil. The legion did not stay behind and defend Hammerfell. Legion veterans who had been discharged did. There is a huge difference between the two. If the legion wanted to continue the defence of Hammerfell, they could have ordered half the troops to march to Cyrodiil instead of all but they didn't. If they no longer had faith in the Emperor, they could have taken over the government in a coup. The emperor is only as powerful as his army after all. They did none of these things. They demanded the Hammerfell legion to withdraw to Cyrodiil. General Decianus, an individual, defied this order and discharged a portion of his veterans so they could continue the fight. It's completely disingenuous to imagine that the Legion Command or the Emperor had a say in this course of events.

 

The reason you see imperial and even a few redguard troops mixed in with nords in the Skyrim legion is because after the war, some of the legions especially cyrodiil ones were utterly annihilated and the rest were less than half strength, they must have had to combine legions to bring them up to standard strength.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

@Lithium Flower

 

I got you. That's kool.

 

@Kayyyleb

 

I used the DLC as a case in point. Don't really need to though because after Ulfric's post I went back and re-read Skaven's journal. Based on what she said, the possibility exists of a Stormcloak / Redguard alliance and although I don't remember where I'm sure it's been brought up on here before. The last paragraph in said journal also offers a condescending view of said alliance, where might the Redguards not wish to ally with Skyrim, thus by contradiction, an alliance between the Redguards and the Empire is possible. Perhaps not as possible as one between Skyrim and Hammerfell, but again, by contradiction, possible none the less. And I'm actually rather surprised that neither yourself, or any other pro-Imperial has brought this up.

 

I still can't get over locking people up in cages. Sh*tty way to go. :/

 

Also... Please see: "A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion" Very last page. I hadn't seen this until I went on YouTube, so there you have it. That's the other piece of the puzzle so this raises the concept of the Empire and Hammerfell unification from just a probability by Contradiction, to a plausible possible scenario in it's own right, same as the Stormcloaks making an alliance with Hammerfell.

 

If there are two sources which verify the in game possibility of an Alliance with Hammerfell between the two factions in question, then the contradiction is proven false. Thus, my original assertion is proven true because it cannot be proven false, it's possible that Empire and Hammerfell could become allies again. Finally, since the upcoming Redguard DLC is not required in order to pose this assertion that Skyrim and Hammerfell should ally, based on Skyrim Lore Content listed under Skaven's journal, then same DLC it is not required to pose the assertion that Empire and Hammerfell could ally based on the book: "A Concise Account of the Great War Between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion" ~ Very last page. In conclusion, the discussion is legitimate to Skyrim.

 

Such an Alliance would undoubtedly provide a strong front against the Dominion and would also serve as a uniting force behind restoring ties with each Province. If Hammerfell can rejoin the Empire, than I conclude that anything is possible province wise.

 

So, Ulfric, Lithium, Kayyyleb, I have demonstrated that from Lore it has been suggested that the Empire and Hammerfell not only can but should become allies. Therefore, this opens an entirely new realm of possibilities for the Empire and since this is possible from Lore and there are an infinite number of alternate universes, it's likely the Empire allying with Hammerfell would create a Universe where the fractured Empire might still be redeemed because it is no longer being fractured. An Empire gaining Provinces is not an Empire losing Provinces, with said state of the Empire having Provinces, therefore, an Empire gaining Provinces is an Empire returning to it's original state of not losing any. In order to gain a Province, the element(s) which caused the original fracture would have to be removed, which means conditions to continue fracturing would no longer apply. Therefore in conclusion, by Contradiction, in the reverse of the fractured condition, Empire would no longer fracture.

 

If one man's weakness can break it, logic would dictate that one man's faith could save it. After all... isn't the Dragonborn of Talos line? I won't go into trying to prove that, but I think someone recently said that Dragonborn is Talos... Not saying I agree with that, but there is strong symbolism between Dragonborn and Talos. Talos was once Tiber Septim the man, who is apparently, man yet again and as man he unified the kingdoms of man with an infant Empire Kingdom established by similar powers. Therefore, if Talos who was man, is man yet again of equivalent form and function created the Empire as we knew it by his freedom of choice, then by Definition established in history Talos who was Tiber Septim could recreate the Empire again if he chose to. And, if Tiber Septim created the Empire as we knew it, then the existing Empire built by him previously on foundation laid by similar powers could restore the Empire as long as there exists a foundation. Which is currently under attack by the Dominion, Warlords, bandits, WGC and Ulfric's rebellion. Not defeated, but under attack. However if the foundation is destroyed thru any of the above means, the Empire will lose it's foundation and cannot be saved.

 

- The Discussion surrounding Empire and Hammerfall Unification is Legitimate, a possibility proposed by Lore and is rooted in Skyrim non-DLC content.

- The afore mentioned possibility of an Empire / Hammerfell Unification serves as a doorway to an entirely different type of change and new set of rules, which are neither limited from or necessarily hindered by the Empire's current condition provided there exists a catalyst for change, with said catalyst allowing a medium from current condition to the other side thru positive or negative change.

- While there is a possible avenue for the Empire's salvation, logic also provides a possible avenue for it's utter Destruction, the contradiction to the catalyst for positive change, bringing instead a catalyst for negative change.

- Either way, change exists and change can not be destroyed or created, only transferred thru a set of pre-defined doorways to Universes added to the Global set by the Bethesda Development team.

- If the Bethesda Development Team choose these Universes, though possible or otherwise, and each Universe represents change, then the Bethesda Development Team is relevant and anything in this current Universe not just can... but will change by their forthcoming decisions, drawn from a sea of possibilities over an endless horizon.

 

 

Hammerfell is not likely to just ally with the Empire, the Empire turned it's back on Hammerfell and the emperor, not one or the other.

 

You're also just giving unbacked claims that the Empire can survive. We see no real proof. If you get a bethesda writer in here or have a document from one supporting it then I will believe it but as of now I see no real evidence.

 

Where is it proposed by lore? I dont see it anywhere? And its likely that Hammerfell also hates the Empire potentially more than the Thalmor, it wouldnt surprise me (But thats not backed, we know they hate the empire and they hate it quite a bit) This makes an Independent Skyrim and Hammerfell alliance much, much more likely. So why is it that Skyrim cant rebel but Hammerfell being renounced is almost okay? If Hammerfell had begun to rebel than no one would argue against it. Its plain to see that its in their right to rebel in that situation. So now Skyrims doing it, but because the empire needs the resources and man power it is wrong.

 

Another point. If the Empire were to take Skyrim - they wont get the man power they lost back. The Nords that were willing to fight are all dead or hate the Empire with a passion. So thats something that makes no sense to me.

 

So I see no possible alliance being possible between the Empire and Hammerfell - The Empire screwed it over. General Decianus could have said "No" but he chose to leave. He most definitely would have suffered the consequences for his actions but would have saved Hammerfell and the Empire's relationship.

 

I still havent seen a solid argument for the revival of the Empire, please give me a good chunk of evidence supporting its renewal.

 

It may be stated the Quintus wants Hammerfell and the Empire to reconcile but theres no evidence supporting that there are moves being made toward this.

[MightyZ0G]

the book Report: Disaster at Ionith is irrellevent as it is a completely different situation.

the Expeditionary Force had fortified 2 cities rather than continue inland then they became cut off from Tamriel and each other by bad weather over an exceptionally long winter.

the actual beachhead had been made and was successful. it was what was done after that lead to defeat, not the invasion by boat.

but even if it was rellevent, it would actually make it harder for the Stormcloaks to do anything against the Dominion as the only way for them to attack them is by sea.

 

given that the Empire crumbles completely if the Rebellion is successful then if the Dominion attack Skyrim from the sea they can resupply through Cyrodiil and High Rock. the Nords have to resupply their invasion of Summerset Isle by ship passing the coast of High Rock or Valenwood and Elsweyr which are effectively under Dominion control and possibly through Morrowind depending on how the Dunmer feel towards Skyrim with Ulfric's, and his followers', xenophobic attitude towards them and all elves.

the Dominion can move troops right up to Skyrim's borders going through High Rock or Cyrodiil but the Nords can't do the same.

 

to survive, Skyrim needs to keep Cyrodiil and High Rock under Imperial control to stop the Thalmor from having all those advantages.

 

and yes, I do think that up to 50% of the population of Skyrim will seek refuge in other provinces if any Imperial controlled provinces remain.

the break down is that roughly 25% are loyal to the Empire and 25% are loyal to Ulfric and 50% are basically neutral.

if Skyrim is invaded by the Dominion then the 25% that support the Empire will leave and of the 50% that are neutral, roughly half will also flee from the fighting if there is somewhere to go.

that is just the Nordic population.

all the Dunmer will probably leave. the Bosmer living in Skyrim could well join with the Dominion as militia. the Bretons, Redguards and Orsimer are just as likely to leave as stay but more likely to leave if High Rock or Hammerfell are still free from the Dominion.

Skyrim becomes a shadow of its former self and may just about have enough men and resources to defend Skyrim but they won't have enough to take the fight to the Thalmor.

if there is nowhere for that potential 50% to go then the first scenario is in effect and Skyrim is isolated and surrounded by the Dominion.

 

Ulfric has shown that he is not honourable.

not because of the way he engineered his challenge to Torryg but because on 2 seperate occaisions he used the Thu'um and neither could be said to be times of True Need.

"While the Greybeards are famed keepers of the Way of the Voice, the core precepts of the philosophy are still reflected in Nordic culture. What constitutes "True Need" may be the subject of debate, but it certainly does not include wars of conquest (and may not even encompass a single individual's survival). So, ever since Jurgen's epiphany, the Nords have mostly abandoned the use of the Voice in offensive warfare."

Ulfric learnt the Thu'um from the Greybeards and was taught the way of the voice yet he uses the voice twice when the philosophy of the way says he shouldn't.

once to defeat the Forsworn and once to defeat Torryg.

neither of those situations are True Need, especially when, in the case of Torryg, he had not exhausted diplomatic options. in fact he hadn't even started diplomatic options, which some consider would have been successful and allowed Skyrim to leave the Empire without the civil war.

 

as a leader Ulfric has had 1 victory and that was against the Forsworn and he had to use the Voice to do it, but he has been captured twice.

the firsttime he was captured he was allowed to escape and the second time it was probably only the coincidence of the Dragonborn being at Helgen that attracted Alduin to interrupt what would have undoubtedly been the effective end of the rebellion.

yet this is the man that everyone thinks has a chance going up against the Dominion while having one hand tied behind his back and a foot in a bucket due to the mess he has plunged his homeland into while alienating it from its former allies.

 

yes, his loyal supporters will follow him to Sovngard and he will lead them there as they will face death at the hands of the Empire or the Dominion :(

 

all that is part of my ingame role playing reason for my character joining the Empire

 

outside the game it doesn't matter which side you chose as the outcome will be the same

Beth has to tie up the lose ends before TESVI and the easiest way is to have a few years of confusion after the events of TESV and then the defeat of the Empire in the Second Great War (probably with Skyrim becoming independent even if Ulfric is defeated) and thus having Tamriel under Dominion control and all the Lore and history is consistant for all players regardless of which side they pick.

the other solution is to have a new dynasty reunite the Empire and have the player take the side of the Dominion is TESVI, but as most players want to take fight the Thalmor, it would make financial sense to go with the first option

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

the book Report: Disaster at Ionith is irrellevent as it is a completely different situation.

the Expeditionary Force had fortified 2 cities rather than continue inland then they became cut off from Tamriel and each other by bad weather over an exceptionally long winter.

the actual beachhead had been made and was successful. it was what was done after that lead to defeat, not the invasion by boat.

but even if it was rellevent, it would actually make it harder for the Stormcloaks to do anything against the Dominion as the only way for them to attack them is by sea.

 

given that the Empire crumbles completely if the Rebellion is successful then if the Dominion attack Skyrim from the sea they can resupply through Cyrodiil and High Rock. the Nords have to resupply their invasion of Summerset Isle by ship passing the coast of High Rock or Valenwood and Elsweyr which are effectively under Dominion control and possibly through Morrowind depending on how the Dunmer feel towards Skyrim with Ulfric's, and his followers', xenophobic attitude towards them and all elves.

the Dominion can move troops right up to Skyrim's borders going through High Rock or Cyrodiil but the Nords can't do the same.

 

to survive, Skyrim needs to keep Cyrodiil and High Rock under Imperial control to stop the Thalmor from having all those advantages.

 

and yes, I do think that up to 50% of the population of Skyrim will seek refuge in other provinces if any Imperial controlled provinces remain.

the break down is that roughly 25% are loyal to the Empire and 25% are loyal to Ulfric and 50% are basically neutral.

if Skyrim is invaded by the Dominion then the 25% that support the Empire will leave and of the 50% that are neutral, roughly half will also flee from the fighting if there is somewhere to go.

that is just the Nordic population.

all the Dunmer will probably leave. the Bosmer living in Skyrim could well join with the Dominion as militia. the Bretons, Redguards and Orsimer are just as likely to leave as stay but more likely to leave if High Rock or Hammerfell are still free from the Dominion.

Skyrim becomes a shadow of its former self and may just about have enough men and resources to defend Skyrim but they won't have enough to take the fight to the Thalmor.

if there is nowhere for that potential 50% to go then the first scenario is in effect and Skyrim is isolated and surrounded by the Dominion.

 

Ulfric has shown that he is not honourable.

not because of the way he engineered his challenge to Torryg but because on 2 seperate occaisions he used the Thu'um and neither could be said to be times of True Need.

"While the Greybeards are famed keepers of the Way of the Voice, the core precepts of the philosophy are still reflected in Nordic culture. What constitutes "True Need" may be the subject of debate, but it certainly does not include wars of conquest (and may not even encompass a single individual's survival). So, ever since Jurgen's epiphany, the Nords have mostly abandoned the use of the Voice in offensive warfare."

Ulfric learnt the Thu'um from the Greybeards and was taught the way of the voice yet he uses the voice twice when the philosophy of the way says he shouldn't.

once to defeat the Forsworn and once to defeat Torryg.

neither of those situations are True Need, especially when, in the case of Torryg, he had not exhausted diplomatic options. in fact he hadn't even started diplomatic options, which some consider would have been successful and allowed Skyrim to leave the Empire without the civil war.

 

as a leader Ulfric has had 1 victory and that was against the Forsworn and he had to use the Voice to do it, but he has been captured twice.

the firsttime he was captured he was allowed to escape and the second time it was probably only the coincidence of the Dragonborn being at Helgen that attracted Alduin to interrupt what would have undoubtedly been the effective end of the rebellion.

yet this is the man that everyone thinks has a chance going up against the Dominion while having one hand tied behind his back and a foot in a bucket due to the mess he has plunged his homeland into while alienating it from its former allies.

 

yes, his loyal supporters will follow him to Sovngard and he will lead them there as they will face death at the hands of the Empire or the Dominion :(

 

all that is part of my ingame role playing reason for my character joining the Empire

 

outside the game it doesn't matter which side you chose as the outcome will be the same

Beth has to tie up the lose ends before TESVI and the easiest way is to have a few years of confusion after the events of TESV and then the defeat of the Empire in the Second Great War (probably with Skyrim becoming independent even if Ulfric is defeated) and thus having Tamriel under Dominion control and all the Lore and history is consistant for all players regardless of which side they pick.

the other solution is to have a new dynasty reunite the Empire and have the player take the side of the Dominion is TESVI, but as most players want to take fight the Thalmor, it would make financial sense to go with the first option

 

Firstly Skyrim isnt just going to fall. That is made very clear. Galmar and Ulfric make mention of an invasion of both the isles and the dominion trying to take Skyrim - so he's preparing.

 

What won me to the rebellion - the speeches. Tullius's was just "The rebellion is dead, heres some money. Now go home." Ulfrics consists of rebuilding and reconstructing Skyrim. Turning it into a strong, self reliant country. It will take time but not 30 years.

 

Speaking of DLC's doesn no good here.

 

The Nords in the past have used the voice as a projection of power. Olaf One-eye, Hakon One-eye, Feldir the Old, Gormlaith Golden Hilt, Jurgen Windcaller. Those are just some examples. Ulfric also mentors you in the way of the voice. He tells you more about being the Dragonborn and also claims he doesnt like using the Thu'um.

 

The Empire is incapable of continuing much longer. I havent seen an argument to the contrary.

 

The Nords arent xenophobic. If they were then why the elves holding places of political power in their courts?

Edited March 30, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[Tidus44]

Why an Empire will prevail.

With the death of a leader or a dynasty, every empire is left in a state of confusion and unrest. The Emperor is placed in the position by god(s) and the loss is a blow to the morale and well being of every person.
Empires are not static and there will be times of good and bad, and times when strong and weak. The wax and wane is largely because of the strength and care shown by the Emperor. No single dynasty has seen everyone everywhere completely satisfied and happy with the leadership of the Empire. There will always be someone unhappy and conspiring to separate and become independent or to take over.

With Skyrim, there is no leader, the Mede Dynasty has ended with no Emperor.

The one thing I rarely see is discussion on the state of the Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion - an Empire in its own right. This seems to be ignored and even denied as inconsequential to the state of the world of Nirn. The simple fact is the Thalmor and their troops in Cyrodiil were wiped out. Now some will say they have all these reserves and their losses in Cyrodiil were not overly devastating. Those who espouse this belief I hope will never be in charge of any fight anywhere. Wars are not won by reserves and even so, reserves hundreds of miles away back home are not reserves. Any reserves that existed were in the Imperial City after it was captured and were wiped out as well in the Battle of the Red Ring. (The Great War).

There also seems to be the belief all is well and good in the AD. Talk to Legate Fasendil. The Thalmor have not fully consolidated their hold at home and still must deal with dissent. We are left to wonder exactly how well off the AD is or even if a revolt is brewing back home on Summerset Isle.

Not one person knows exactly why the Empire signed the WGC. No one was there, no one was involved in the negotiations or knows exactly what the state of mind was in either the Thalmor or the Empire. It's all speculation and rumor.
All we know for sure is that both sides were tired and had suffered enormous losses and needed the break from killing, or rather dying. That's BOTH sides, not just one.
Which raises the question of if the Thalmor had all these reserves, why sign a treaty? The Thalmor are not after banning Talos worship, but the domination of the world culture. Seems sort of strange they would sign a treaty that really did not achieve either if they had a ton of reserves back home to throw into the fight. The best they won was to be able to go after Talos worshippers and given what one sees in the game, they ain't doing a very good job of that.

Another issue that has not been addressed is the birth and maturity rate of the Aldmer. Are they having 8-10 children and even if they are, it takes a while (longer than for men) for elves to reach maturity. The Thalmor may be a half a century away from rebuilding an army and need time to gain the troops. I only speculate that elves do not have a ton of children and then it takes time for them to reach maturity due to their long lives (a thousand years is said, but it seems average is 300 years) from The Real Barenziah, v2.

There is the speculation that Hammerfell hates the Empire for abandoning them with the WCG. For all we know it is as possible that Hammerfell could not accept the terms of the WCG and ASKED to be released from the Empire so they could continue to fight and the Emperor acquiesced to their request.
There is no proof other than rumor to suggest one way or the other is correct and to do so is entirely speculative and just plain fantasy.
However, one need consider the relationship that would have existed between allies. We have seen real world examples of where one of the group of an allied force left over a disagreement on a treaty. There was no hate and even with the tensions that existed with the break up, the group that left still supported the remaining allies when asked and vice versa. There is just as much speculation to say that Hammerfell will come to the aid of the Empire when the time comes as there is to say they won't. Only time will tell - and strange, but the next rumoured DLC is "Redguard". If true, seems a bit coincidental, what?

So now ask why would Hammerfell be able to beat the AD to a stalemate and kick them out of the province? Because the Thalmor had tons of reserves to throw into the fight? No, because they were decimated and didn't have the resources to win against even the decimated and much smaller army of Hammerfell. Why didn't the Thalmor bring sufficient reserves from back at home to bring into the fight? Maybe a bit of trouble back home that needs to be addressed as well? Or perhaps the most combat-capable race was just too much?

The other aspect that has been ignored is the reappearance of the Psijic Order at this time in history. Exactly what is the role of this order and where do they stand in relation to the Thalmor and the AD? Given the Eye of Magnus quest and some of the conversation that occurs, one could be led to believe the Psijic Order is not exactly endeared with the Thalmor and may even have some objection regarding their goal of cultural domination and god worship. Might be some trouble there for the Thalmor and even a force that could influence the beginning of a new Empire.

This brings me to why the Empire will prevail regardless of the folly of Ulfric and his Stormcloaks in breaking up the Empire further. Ulfric win or lose doesn't matter - he's a blip in history and will be remembered as a egocentric fool, if at all.
The Thalmor want to be in charge and force everyone to follow their culture. In time, provinces will begin to see this more clearly and feel the pressure and realize that standing alone they cannot hope to decisively defeat the AD. To suggest only the Nords want to retain their lifestyle and culture is injudicious to the extreme and cannot even be considered a rational contention. Why did Hammerfell fight further? Cause they liked to fight?
A fight will come sooner or later over culture and the effected province will look to gain a "friend" to help them. Stalemates and agreements will not be sufficient to allow freedom and the need will be for a decisive final victory over oppression. As with any fight, the best advice is: bring friends. Then bring more friends. Oh and lots of weapons too. This is how you win, not just fight.

There will be other provinces who will see the threat as well and join and also those who are fearful of the fight and hope to hold off and see how it goes. But there will be provinces who join together to fight the Thalmor because they have had enough or see the threat.
Those provinces who ally will have one problem to resolve. As with any "marriage", the fight will be over who is the "bride". A leader will emerge, one that all will trust and follow and from this marriage a new "baby" will be conceived that will eventually become an Empire again - and a strong one. Because of tradition, the seat of the Empire will be in the largest and most beautiful city, the Imperial City.

One must realize that an Empire is a series of provinces generally with their own government that answers to a single authority - an Emperor (and this time I want to see an Empress!!! - it's time for one.) for divine or ultimate authority. A good one will allow those governments to do what they will to benefit the people, and maintain control over corruption and injustices to maintain the "big" picture, just as Uriel VII did.
I think the sad part is that this will all be explained in a paragraph or two in the next TES game and we will never see the fight against the Thalmor. The next game will state the Thalmor will simply have been defeated and a new Empire will have emerged that faces some threat that one person will be assigned by fate to resolve or eliminate.

[TheLoreSeeker]

 

Firstly Skyrim isnt just going to fall. That is made very clear. Galmar and Ulfric make mention of an invasion of both the isles and the dominion trying to take Skyrim - so he's preparing.

 

And yet 1 warrior from the outside and a single Imperial Legion can defeat Ulfric, Galmar, and the Stormcloaks and take back Skyrim. Really....their chances aren't any better at defeating the Dominion than the Imperials are.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The Dragonborn makes the difference in Skyrim. The same can be said for the Imperials, why is the legion so strong if I alone was able to Storm Solitude and kill all the guards and save Roggvir?

 

I never said they were more or less capable than the Imperial Legion, but I said that for the Empire in general. They have more will to fight, they have plans, they have the resources. The Stormcloaks make plans, they rebuild, they reignite Nord culture which has been bashed and beaten by more than just the Imperials. That is the main reason I side with them. They actually do something to help Skyrim, whereas the Imperials want resources and man power. The Stormcloaks and Imperial legion are obviously close in strength, but the Empire of Tamriel is not.

 

Im not sure why everyone is so certain that the Dragonborn will be crowned Emperor. Why, he may even be made High King at that. Its all speculation and unbacked claims.

 

Edited the first paragraph. Changed the first sentence.

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[Kayyyleb]

The Dragonborn makes the difference in Skyrim. The same can be said for the Imperials, why is the legion so strong if I alone was able to Storm Solitude and kill all the guards and save Roggvir?

 

I never said they were more or less capable than the Empire. They have more will to fight, they have plans, they have the resources. The Stormcloaks make plans, they rebuild, they reignite Nord culture which has been bashed and beaten by more than just the Imperials. That is the main reason I side with them. They actually do something to help Skyrim, whereas the Imperials want resources and man power. The Stormcloaks and Imperial legion are obviously close in strength, but the Empire of Tamriel is not.

 

Im not sure why everyone is so certain that the Dragonborn will be crowned Emperor. Why, he may even be made High King at that. Its all speculation and unbacked claims.

The problem is you apply invincibility to Skyrim when it's convenient for you. The point about the Legion in Skyrim stands. A single Legion fought to a draw (at worst) with the rebels. Any dedicated AD invasion army is going to have far more men than the equivalent of one legion. Skyrim is far weaker than you repeatedly claim it is.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Actually according to Tullius he has a "handful of legions." Each hold has a legion occupying it. Thats why there are legates there. Each legate controls a legion. Generals control groups of legions. The Stormcloaks have armies. Equal to the legions forces.

 

I also found something interesting. Tullius is at the Thalmor party. When asked why he sais "The Thalmor invite me here to remind everyone that they can tell the empire what to do. I would refuse but I dont want to jeopardize the peace between us."

 

Another reason I sided with the Stormcloaks -

 

Rikke: Im telling you General, the mans planning an attack on Whiterun.

Tullius: Jarl Balgruuf . . .

Rikke: He refuses to acknowledge the Empire's right to garrison troops in his city, on the other hand he also refuses to acknowledge Ulfrics claim.

Tullius: If he wants to stand outside of Imperial protection, fine, let Ulfric pillage his city.

Rikke: General? . . .

Tullius: You people and your damn Jarls.

 

Thats what pissed me off when I joined the legion at first. He would let Whiterun be pillaged, he doesnt care for the people, he wants to end the war and gain the resources from Skyrim. If you continue in the dialogue . . . . -

 

Rikke: Sir? You cant force a Nord to accept help he hasnt asked for.

Tullius: If Ulfrics making a move for Whiterun, we need to be there to stop him. Draft another letter with the usual platitudes. But this time share some of your intelligence regarding Ulfrics plans. Embellish if you have to. We'll make it seem like it's his idea.

Rikke: Yes sir.

Tullius: You Nords and your bloody sense of honor.

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak