Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Kayyyleb]

Actually according to Tullius he has a "handful of legions." Each hold has a legion occupying it. Thats why there are legates there. Each legate controls a legion. Generals control groups of legions. The Stormcloaks have armies. Equal to the legions forces.

 

I also found something interesting. Tullius is at the Thalmor party. When asked why he sais "The Thalmor invite me here to remind everyone that they can tell the empire what to do. I would refuse but I dont want to jeopardize the peace between us."

Every other source in the game says the 7th Legion is the only one in Skyrim. A legion is controlled by a general. Legates are captains in the field. If you want to say otherwise you'll have to prove it because everything I've ever seen in the game suggests exactly what I said. You're grasping at straws here and I think we both can see that.

 

I've never seen Tullius at the Thalmor party in any of my...4 playthroughs. Regardless, I fail to see the point of bringing that up at all. Tullius drags himself to the party loathing every muscle movement it took to get there because making a rash, useless gesture of defiance against the emperor's decision won't accomplish anything.

Edited March 31, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[TheLoreSeeker]

Legates command foot soldiers, issuing orders and directing them in combat. Legates coordinate invasions of cities, raids on Stormcloak forts and bases of operations.

They're field commanders...not Legion commanders. If each Legate controlled a legion that means there would technically be 8 or 9 legions in Skyrim...and we all know that's not the case.

Edited March 31, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[Kayyyleb]

Legates command foot soldiers, issuing orders and directing them in combat. Legates coordinate invasions of cities, raids on Stormcloak forts and bases of operations.

 

They're field commanders...not Legion commanders. If each Legate controlled a legion that means there would technically be 8 or 9 legions in Skyrim...and we all know that's not the case.

Any mention of "a legion in each hold" is almost guaranteed to be some sort of offhand or slang remark to refer to a group of soldiers. Because yes, we all know there aren't half a dozen legions in Skyrim. To suggest that is absolutely absurd with the majority of the legion on the border with the AD.

 

A legion is more like the real life equivalent of a regiment. Not a platoon like Ulfric here is trying to make it sound.

[MightyZ0G]

 

the book Report: Disaster at Ionith is irrellevent as it is a completely different situation.

the Expeditionary Force had fortified 2 cities rather than continue inland then they became cut off from Tamriel and each other by bad weather over an exceptionally long winter.

the actual beachhead had been made and was successful. it was what was done after that lead to defeat, not the invasion by boat.

but even if it was rellevent, it would actually make it harder for the Stormcloaks to do anything against the Dominion as the only way for them to attack them is by sea.

 

given that the Empire crumbles completely if the Rebellion is successful then if the Dominion attack Skyrim from the sea they can resupply through Cyrodiil and High Rock. the Nords have to resupply their invasion of Summerset Isle by ship passing the coast of High Rock or Valenwood and Elsweyr which are effectively under Dominion control and possibly through Morrowind depending on how the Dunmer feel towards Skyrim with Ulfric's, and his followers', xenophobic attitude towards them and all elves.

the Dominion can move troops right up to Skyrim's borders going through High Rock or Cyrodiil but the Nords can't do the same.

 

to survive, Skyrim needs to keep Cyrodiil and High Rock under Imperial control to stop the Thalmor from having all those advantages.

 

and yes, I do think that up to 50% of the population of Skyrim will seek refuge in other provinces if any Imperial controlled provinces remain.

the break down is that roughly 25% are loyal to the Empire and 25% are loyal to Ulfric and 50% are basically neutral.

if Skyrim is invaded by the Dominion then the 25% that support the Empire will leave and of the 50% that are neutral, roughly half will also flee from the fighting if there is somewhere to go.

that is just the Nordic population.

all the Dunmer will probably leave. the Bosmer living in Skyrim could well join with the Dominion as militia. the Bretons, Redguards and Orsimer are just as likely to leave as stay but more likely to leave if High Rock or Hammerfell are still free from the Dominion.

Skyrim becomes a shadow of its former self and may just about have enough men and resources to defend Skyrim but they won't have enough to take the fight to the Thalmor.

if there is nowhere for that potential 50% to go then the first scenario is in effect and Skyrim is isolated and surrounded by the Dominion.

 

Ulfric has shown that he is not honourable.

not because of the way he engineered his challenge to Torryg but because on 2 seperate occaisions he used the Thu'um and neither could be said to be times of True Need.

"While the Greybeards are famed keepers of the Way of the Voice, the core precepts of the philosophy are still reflected in Nordic culture. What constitutes "True Need" may be the subject of debate, but it certainly does not include wars of conquest (and may not even encompass a single individual's survival). So, ever since Jurgen's epiphany, the Nords have mostly abandoned the use of the Voice in offensive warfare."

Ulfric learnt the Thu'um from the Greybeards and was taught the way of the voice yet he uses the voice twice when the philosophy of the way says he shouldn't.

once to defeat the Forsworn and once to defeat Torryg.

neither of those situations are True Need, especially when, in the case of Torryg, he had not exhausted diplomatic options. in fact he hadn't even started diplomatic options, which some consider would have been successful and allowed Skyrim to leave the Empire without the civil war.

 

as a leader Ulfric has had 1 victory and that was against the Forsworn and he had to use the Voice to do it, but he has been captured twice.

the firsttime he was captured he was allowed to escape and the second time it was probably only the coincidence of the Dragonborn being at Helgen that attracted Alduin to interrupt what would have undoubtedly been the effective end of the rebellion.

yet this is the man that everyone thinks has a chance going up against the Dominion while having one hand tied behind his back and a foot in a bucket due to the mess he has plunged his homeland into while alienating it from its former allies.

 

yes, his loyal supporters will follow him to Sovngard and he will lead them there as they will face death at the hands of the Empire or the Dominion :(

 

all that is part of my ingame role playing reason for my character joining the Empire

 

outside the game it doesn't matter which side you chose as the outcome will be the same

Beth has to tie up the lose ends before TESVI and the easiest way is to have a few years of confusion after the events of TESV and then the defeat of the Empire in the Second Great War (probably with Skyrim becoming independent even if Ulfric is defeated) and thus having Tamriel under Dominion control and all the Lore and history is consistant for all players regardless of which side they pick.

the other solution is to have a new dynasty reunite the Empire and have the player take the side of the Dominion is TESVI, but as most players want to take fight the Thalmor, it would make financial sense to go with the first option

 

Firstly Skyrim isnt just going to fall. That is made very clear. Galmar and Ulfric make mention of an invasion of both the isles and the dominion trying to take Skyrim - so he's preparing.

 

What won me to the rebellion - the speeches. Tullius's was just "The rebellion is dead, heres some money. Now go home." Ulfrics consists of rebuilding and reconstructing Skyrim. Turning it into a strong, self reliant country. It will take time but not 30 years.

 

Speaking of DLC's doesn no good here.

 

The Nords in the past have used the voice as a projection of power. Olaf One-eye, Hakon One-eye, Feldir the Old, Gormlaith Golden Hilt, Jurgen Windcaller. Those are just some examples. Ulfric also mentors you in the way of the voice. He tells you more about being the Dragonborn and also claims he doesnt like using the Thu'um.

 

The Empire is incapable of continuing much longer. I havent seen an argument to the contrary.

 

The Nords arent xenophobic. If they were then why the elves holding places of political power in their courts?

 

Firstly the Empire isnt just going to fall. That is made very clear. Tulius and Rikke are considering the complete picture of Tamriel and are preparing and many of Skyrim's Nords have faith in the Empire and/or see it as Skyrim's only hope of survival.

the NPCs are all sure their side is right and can't be argued/reasoned with to change their minds.

 

many people in history have been great orators. that only means that they are very charismatic and good at talking, not that what they were saying was correct or that the promises they make will be kept or that they are nice people. it only means they are good at talking and Ulfric has studied The Way of the Voice (of which using it in battle is the least of its uses).

 

umm, what DLC did I refer to as a potential source?

I said that a possible future after the events of TESV is that the Empire does crumble, Skyrim could well find itself completely surrounded by the Dominion with very few strategic options while the Dominion can besiege the entire province followed by my reasoning why I think it is possible for Skyrim to lose a percentage of its population to other provinces should any remain free from the Dominion.

that is all pure speculation based on the possible future of Tamriel AFTER the events of TESV.

 

yes, the Nords in the past did use the Voice in battle until the defeat at Red Mountain, after which Jurgen Windcaller created The Way of the Voiceand then proved that his philosophy was better than that of those who used it with out True Need.

that is a huge part of the Nord Tradition that Ulfric claims to represent yet he ignores it to use his Thu'um to advance himself, caring little for those who are in his way.

 

if there is no argument to support the continuence of the Empire there is none to support the success of Skyrim with Ulfric as High King.

the argument of Ulfric leading the Nords to Summerset Isle is, as far as we know, purely a pipe dream with little or no hope of real success.

from within the game the view must be that the Empire can survive, just as there also has to be room for the view that a free and independent Skyrim can defeat the Dominion.

just because we are outside and omnipotent and can see that the Empire is doomed, because of narrative imperative, doesn't mean that it is a forgone conclusion to the characters within the game. please don't confuse the argument by giving the charaters in the game omnipotence, even though your character is omnipotent in your game, it isn't his opinion that counts, it is the opinions of the NPCs and those with opinions are split 50/50 on the fate of the Empire and Skyrim.

from the position of omnipotence we can see that individually the provinces are doomed to be conquered by the Dominion and that the Empire will fall. it has to or the story will get boring (who is going to play TESVI if it turns out that your character has a farm and spends all day harvesting wheat and grinding it into flour?) but our characters have to have to act as if their actions will make a difference.

 

I didn't say the Nords were xenophobic, I said that Ulfric and his followers were.

although whenever any fighting starts there is nearly always someone shouting "Skyrim for the Nords"

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I agree that Tullius doesnt want to be there, that is clear enough, all Im saying is that the Thalmor do have a say in the moves the Empire makes. Which is where the puppet phrase comes in to play.

 

And those are field legates.

 

During the great war the generals were commanding several legions each, there were three generals. Dicianus, Jonna and the Emperor was acting as a general. He lead the man force to the Imperial city.

 

Generals dont lead individual legions. Legates do. Garrisons are the separation of legions within each other. So roughly 2 garrisons per hold.

 

This is in reference to Tullius's dialogue so Im dont have any links. Im currently attempting to find one with his dialogue.

 

Even so. Just because the Civil war is between perhaps one legion and an Army of Stormcloaks doesnt mean Skyrim is weak, or the Stormcloaks for that matter. They have armies, look, its plural. And according to Galmar he says "I've toured our camps."

 

I dont believe that in game the number of soldiers is an accurate representative of the real amount of soldiers. But if it is then well, oh well.

 

TheLoreSeeker is right though, we dont know about the strength of the AD. They may still be trying to recover. They obviously dont have a fighting force capable of taking Hammerfell, which they want more than Skyrim so how could they take Skyrim? Or Cyrodiil? They cant. I still believe Skyrim should be independent.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

 

 

 

 

the book Report: Disaster at Ionith is irrellevent as it is a completely different situation.

the Expeditionary Force had fortified 2 cities rather than continue inland then they became cut off from Tamriel and each other by bad weather over an exceptionally long winter.

the actual beachhead had been made and was successful. it was what was done after that lead to defeat, not the invasion by boat.

but even if it was rellevent, it would actually make it harder for the Stormcloaks to do anything against the Dominion as the only way for them to attack them is by sea.

 

given that the Empire crumbles completely if the Rebellion is successful then if the Dominion attack Skyrim from the sea they can resupply through Cyrodiil and High Rock. the Nords have to resupply their invasion of Summerset Isle by ship passing the coast of High Rock or Valenwood and Elsweyr which are effectively under Dominion control and possibly through Morrowind depending on how the Dunmer feel towards Skyrim with Ulfric's, and his followers', xenophobic attitude towards them and all elves.

the Dominion can move troops right up to Skyrim's borders going through High Rock or Cyrodiil but the Nords can't do the same.

 

to survive, Skyrim needs to keep Cyrodiil and High Rock under Imperial control to stop the Thalmor from having all those advantages.

 

and yes, I do think that up to 50% of the population of Skyrim will seek refuge in other provinces if any Imperial controlled provinces remain.

the break down is that roughly 25% are loyal to the Empire and 25% are loyal to Ulfric and 50% are basically neutral.

if Skyrim is invaded by the Dominion then the 25% that support the Empire will leave and of the 50% that are neutral, roughly half will also flee from the fighting if there is somewhere to go.

that is just the Nordic population.

all the Dunmer will probably leave. the Bosmer living in Skyrim could well join with the Dominion as militia. the Bretons, Redguards and Orsimer are just as likely to leave as stay but more likely to leave if High Rock or Hammerfell are still free from the Dominion.

Skyrim becomes a shadow of its former self and may just about have enough men and resources to defend Skyrim but they won't have enough to take the fight to the Thalmor.

if there is nowhere for that potential 50% to go then the first scenario is in effect and Skyrim is isolated and surrounded by the Dominion.

 

Ulfric has shown that he is not honourable.

not because of the way he engineered his challenge to Torryg but because on 2 seperate occaisions he used the Thu'um and neither could be said to be times of True Need.

"While the Greybeards are famed keepers of the Way of the Voice, the core precepts of the philosophy are still reflected in Nordic culture. What constitutes "True Need" may be the subject of debate, but it certainly does not include wars of conquest (and may not even encompass a single individual's survival). So, ever since Jurgen's epiphany, the Nords have mostly abandoned the use of the Voice in offensive warfare."

Ulfric learnt the Thu'um from the Greybeards and was taught the way of the voice yet he uses the voice twice when the philosophy of the way says he shouldn't.

once to defeat the Forsworn and once to defeat Torryg.

neither of those situations are True Need, especially when, in the case of Torryg, he had not exhausted diplomatic options. in fact he hadn't even started diplomatic options, which some consider would have been successful and allowed Skyrim to leave the Empire without the civil war.

 

as a leader Ulfric has had 1 victory and that was against the Forsworn and he had to use the Voice to do it, but he has been captured twice.

the firsttime he was captured he was allowed to escape and the second time it was probably only the coincidence of the Dragonborn being at Helgen that attracted Alduin to interrupt what would have undoubtedly been the effective end of the rebellion.

yet this is the man that everyone thinks has a chance going up against the Dominion while having one hand tied behind his back and a foot in a bucket due to the mess he has plunged his homeland into while alienating it from its former allies.

 

yes, his loyal supporters will follow him to Sovngard and he will lead them there as they will face death at the hands of the Empire or the Dominion :(

 

all that is part of my ingame role playing reason for my character joining the Empire

 

outside the game it doesn't matter which side you chose as the outcome will be the same

Beth has to tie up the lose ends before TESVI and the easiest way is to have a few years of confusion after the events of TESV and then the defeat of the Empire in the Second Great War (probably with Skyrim becoming independent even if Ulfric is defeated) and thus having Tamriel under Dominion control and all the Lore and history is consistant for all players regardless of which side they pick.

the other solution is to have a new dynasty reunite the Empire and have the player take the side of the Dominion is TESVI, but as most players want to take fight the Thalmor, it would make financial sense to go with the first option

 

Firstly Skyrim isnt just going to fall. That is made very clear. Galmar and Ulfric make mention of an invasion of both the isles and the dominion trying to take Skyrim - so he's preparing.

 

What won me to the rebellion - the speeches. Tullius's was just "The rebellion is dead, heres some money. Now go home." Ulfrics consists of rebuilding and reconstructing Skyrim. Turning it into a strong, self reliant country. It will take time but not 30 years.

 

Speaking of DLC's doesn no good here.

 

The Nords in the past have used the voice as a projection of power. Olaf One-eye, Hakon One-eye, Feldir the Old, Gormlaith Golden Hilt, Jurgen Windcaller. Those are just some examples. Ulfric also mentors you in the way of the voice. He tells you more about being the Dragonborn and also claims he doesnt like using the Thu'um.

 

The Empire is incapable of continuing much longer. I havent seen an argument to the contrary.

 

The Nords arent xenophobic. If they were then why the elves holding places of political power in their courts?

Firstly the Empire isnt just going to fall. That is made very clear. Tulius and Rikke are considering the complete picture of Tamriel and are preparing and many of Skyrim's Nords have faith in the Empire and/or see it as Skyrim's only hope of survival.

the NPCs are all sure their side is right and can't be argued/reasoned with to change their minds.

 

many people in history have been great orators. that only means that they are very charismatic and good at talking, not that what they were saying was correct or that the promises they make will be kept or that they are nice people. it only means they are good at talking and Ulfric has studied The Way of the Voice (of which using it in battle is the least of its uses).

 

umm, what DLC did I refer to as a potential source?

I said that a possible future after the events of TESV is that the Empire does crumble, Skyrim could well find itself completely surrounded by the Dominion with very few strategic options while the Dominion can besiege the entire province followed by my reasoning why I think it is possible for Skyrim to lose a percentage of its population to other provinces should any remain free from the Dominion.

that is all pure speculation based on the possible future of Tamriel AFTER the events of TESV.

 

yes, the Nords in the past did use the Voice in battle until the defeat at Red Mountain, after which Jurgen Windcaller created The Way of the Voiceand then proved that his philosophy was better than that of those who used it with out True Need.

that is a huge part of the Nord Tradition that Ulfric claims to represent yet he ignores it to use his Thu'um to advance himself, caring little for those who are in his way.

 

if there is no argument to support the continuence of the Empire there is none to support the success of Skyrim with Ulfric as High King.

the argument of Ulfric leading the Nords to Summerset Isle is, as far as we know, purely a pipe dream with little or no hope of real success.

from within the game the view must be that the Empire can survive, just as there also has to be room for the view that a free and independent Skyrim can defeat the Dominion.

just because we are outside and omnipotent and can see that the Empire is doomed, because of narrative imperative, doesn't mean that it is a forgone conclusion to the characters within the game. please don't confuse the argument by giving the charaters in the game omnipotence, even though your character is omnipotent in your game, it isn't his opinion that counts, it is the opinions of the NPCs and those with opinions are split 50/50 on the fate of the Empire and Skyrim.

from the position of omnipotence we can see that individually the provinces are doomed to be conquered by the Dominion and that the Empire will fall. it has to or the story will get boring (who is going to play TESVI if it turns out that your character has a farm and spends all day harvesting wheat and grinding it into flour?) but our characters have to have to act as if their actions will make a difference.

 

I didn't say the Nords were xenophobic, I said that Ulfric and his followers were.

although whenever any fighting starts there is nearly always someone shouting "Skyrim for the Nords"

Have you ignored everything we have said? The Empire is falling curently. It has no chance. The Imperial legion is at maybe half strength or slightly better but with green troops (except those in Skyrim)

 

How can the Empire survive if it cant keep the peace in Cyrodiil? I haven seen an argument yet to prove that its going to just recover some how.

 

 

By Lithium Flower, I didnt want to retype it.

 

We can see a clear pattern since Martin Septim's death of the Empire safeguarding the centre at the cost of the provinces. They withdrew forces from Summerset Isle and Morrowind in the beginning, leaving both vulnerable to Thalmor and Argonian advances. It then ignored Valenwood and Elswyer, allowing both to fall to Thalmor machinations. So, even before the start of the Great War, the Empire is down to four provinces - Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, High Rock and Skyrim.

 

Great War begins, Cyrodiil is attacked - and Titus Mede recalls legions fighting in Hammerfell to defend Cyrodiil. Because Cyrodiil is devastated, Titus Mede decides unilaterally without consulting Skyrim or Hammerfell that they are not going to fight any more, selling both down the river to secure peace with the Thalmor.

 

Hammerfell rebels and is renounced. Skyrim starts to rebel. The southern part of Cyrodiil (furthest from the centre and long neglected) falls to unrest and lawlessness - Bravil, Cheydinhal. Cicero's journals tell us that High Rock is also troubled.

 

You would have to be completely blind not to see that the influence of the Empire is shrinking decade by decade, city by city until only IC remains. It's a text book collapse.

 

It's not going to majestically renew from its own ashes - that's not what happened when Martin Septim died - Titus Mede I rose as a conqueror in Colovia, took control of the Imperial City and declared himself emperor. Hammerfell is not going to throw in their lot with an obviously shrinking/collapsing Empire that can't even guarantee law and order in its own cities. Neither should Skyriim.

 

The Thalmor are not chewing at their bits to invade - they are playing the divide and cripple game because they don't have manpower to front another invasion - their armies were annihilated.

 

There has to be another power that takes over the Empire to lead Tamriel anew. Maybe a dlc will declare it to be the Dragonborn. Maybe there'll be another enantiomorph between the dragonborn, Ulfric and Tullius and a new Lorkhan deity will take Talos' place in the pantheon I can't say. It's far more likely that with Skyrim liberated, Cyrodill's disintegration will follow. Cheydinhal, Chorrol and Bruma are likely going to fall under Skyrim's influence and then become annexed. Anvil and Skingrad will become absorbed into Hammerfell. Bravil and Leyawiin will come under Thalmor influence but the Mede Empire is literally dead. They created 200 years of lore to firmly establish the collapse and then finally killed Titus Mede in the game (doesn't matter if your DB didn't do it, it was still accomplished by an anonymous listener as per Bethesda's traditional way of dealing with sidequests).

 

The basic theme of the whole series is 'The Fall of the Empire'. As far back as Morrowind, they've been building up to it, hinting towards this inevitability. See the Talos avatar character Wulf's lines. Lots of dialogue in Oblivion establishes how unrest is growing in the peripheral provinces in contrast to the wealth and decadence of the centre and now finally we are witnessing its death throes in Skyrim.

 

You would have to ignore real world history, you would have to ignore TES history, you would have to ignore the themes in at least three previous games to argue that the Empire is magically going to be restored if only Ulfric is killed and by then you might as well argue that the new emperor will be Doctor Who in the Tardis.

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Also I made it clear that each Stormcloak soldier actually has reasons for siding with the Stormcloaks. Rikki and Hadvar seem to be the only two Imperial NPC's that voice saying Skyrims only hope is the Empire.

 

Sisterof made a great point a while back. The Septim Empire had a supernatural reason to exist. To protect Tamriel form the gates of Oblivion. Now the Septims are dead, and the gates to oblivion were sealed shut permanently when Martin Septim sacrificed himself. There is no Amulet of Kings. The Allesian Empire used it, and Tiber Septim got it from the Reman Cyrodiil's tomb in Sancre Tor. So now theres no supernatural reason for this Empire to exist.

 

And if a new Empire were to emerge it would need to be a new Empire. Not the shell of this crumbling a dying one we have now but one in which first the nations need to secede from and become independent, because every country in Tamriel has a reason to hate it. Black Marsh doesnt care really. So thats why we need a new Empire. Destroy the old one and forge a new one.

 

But perhaps the Empire will live on, but if it magically makes it through all this, I wont be a part of it. I wouldnt even play the next TES game if this Empire is in control. Specifically this Empire, the Mede Empire. If a different Empire were to emerge (Other than the AD) then I will consider it.

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The Empire isnt going to get money from anyone to help bail it out. It will buckle under its own weight. I think the reason for being able to take both siides is to allow the player to see why the Empire is the wrong side to choose. I chose the Empire before I knew what happened in the Great War, I was uninformed and naive then, and now my views have changed for the better.

 

For Sisterof -

 

I hate it. Every time I read your name I read "sisterov" Like its slavic or something. I just needed to say it.

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[MightyZ0G]

I have stated numerous times that, viewed from outside the game, the Empire is doomed.

 

the only difference in choosing a side is whether Skyrim falls to the Dominion as part of the Empire or as an independent province.

 

but inside the game all the possibilities for the Empire to rebuild and become strong enough to oppose the Dominion, with or without Skyrim, are still there.

they have to be or why have the option?

if there is a wrong answer to choosing a side then surely you should find yourself as a defender at Solitude or Windhelm and finally being executed alongside Tulius or Ulfric (depending on Bethesda's choice as to which side is right) and it is game over.

 

it keeps being said that with the dragonborn along side them the Stormcloaks can beat the Dominion, but that is only true if the dragonborn sides with Ulfric.

if he sides with the Empire then it is the Empire (including Skyrim) with the dragonborn aiding them against the Dominion.

why is it that you see Skyrim plus Dragonborn as enough to defeat the Dominion but Skyrim plus Cyrodiil plus High Rock plus the Dragornborn as not having a chance?

why did Ulfric plunge Skyrim into civil war when he could have persuaded Torryg to leave the Empire but remain on friendly terms and keep the possibility of trade with the Empire and also freeing up the remaining legions to better defend Cyrodiil and High Rock against the possibility of future attack?

 

I have seen no evidence to support the idea that Ulfric is capable of leading Skyrim against the Dominion except Ulfric's rhetoric and that carries less weight with me than Tulius' does with you ;)

the only evidence we have of his military prowess is that

1; he was captured by the Dominion in the Great War.

2; he quelled an uprising by the basically peaceful Reachmen by using the Voice.

3; he used the Voice to beat a boy in a duel.

4; he was captured by the Legion.

 

the fact that he is still alive and free is purely luck.

as a military leader, Ulfric sucks and no amount of "he is planning" changes that

 

on the other hand you say that Tulius doesn't say much about future plans to stand up to the Dominion but that isn't the job he has right now.

he knows that the Dominion is still a very real threat but the job he has is to quell a rebellion.

if he spends all his time planning to strike back at the Thalmor then he isn't going to be concentrating on capturing Ulfric and ending the war in Skyrim and he has already shown that he is capable enough to capture Ulfric. only the untimely intervention of a dragon prevented Ulfric's death.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

I have stated numerous times that, viewed from outside the game, the Empire is doomed.

 

the only difference in choosing a side is whether Skyrim falls to the Dominion as part of the Empire or as an independent province.

 

but inside the game all the possibilities for the Empire to rebuild and become strong enough to oppose the Dominion, with or without Skyrim, are still there.

they have to be or why have the option?

if there is a wrong answer to choosing a side then surely you should find yourself as a defender at Solitude or Windhelm and finally being executed alongside Tulius or Ulfric (depending on Bethesda's choice as to which side is right) and it is game over.

 

it keeps being said that with the dragonborn along side them the Stormcloaks can beat the Dominion, but that is only true if the dragonborn sides with Ulfric.

if he sides with the Empire then it is the Empire (including Skyrim) with the dragonborn aiding them against the Dominion.

why is it that you see Skyrim plus Dragonborn as enough to defeat the Dominion but Skyrim plus Cyrodiil plus High Rock plus the Dragornborn as not having a chance?

why did Ulfric plunge Skyrim into civil war when he could have persuaded Torryg to leave the Empire but remain on friendly terms and keep the possibility of trade with the Empire and also freeing up the remaining legions to better defend Cyrodiil and High Rock against the possibility of future attack?

 

I have seen no evidence to support the idea that Ulfric is capable of leading Skyrim against the Dominion except Ulfric's rhetoric and that carries less weight with me than Tulius' does with you :wink:

the only evidence we have of his military prowess is that

1; he was captured by the Dominion in the Great War.

2; he quelled an uprising by the basically peaceful Reachmen by using the Voice.

3; he used the Voice to beat a boy in a duel.

4; he was captured by the Legion.

 

the fact that he is still alive and free is purely luck.

as a military leader, Ulfric sucks and no amount of "he is planning" changes that

 

on the other hand you say that Tulius doesn't say much about future plans to stand up to the Dominion but that isn't the job he has right now.

he knows that the Dominion is still a very real threat but the job he has is to quell a rebellion.

if he spends all his time planning to strike back at the Thalmor then he isn't going to be concentrating on capturing Ulfric and ending the war in Skyrim and he has already shown that he is capable enough to capture Ulfric. only the untimely intervention of a dragon prevented Ulfric's death.

Skyrim needs to be independent. The Empire has no reason to be in Skyrim except for resources and man power. I have never said "the dragonborn being on the side of the Stormcloaks is why they will beat the dominion." It's actually something I left out on purpose.

 

Militarily the Empire may have a chance. Maybe.

 

The fact that the Stormcloaks try to get High Rocks help makes me think that maybe High Rock is independent. Im not sure on High Rock, its the only province other than the dominion that we know so little about currently.

 

The fact that the Empire, the Empire, not the legion, has so many problems makes it obvious that it will perish and collapse.

 

Lithium Flower made a great point.

 

After TES IV: Oblvion we see that the empire is instantly weakened. Losing 4 provinces, one is completely devastated and invaded, yet the Empire does nothing. the empire plunges into the Stormcrown interregnum, Hammerfell breaks out in civil war, then the Great War comes. Then the empire loses another province, another breaks into civil war, and civil unrest breaks out in Cyrodiil, crime becomes increasingly high and the legion spreads itself out to try to keep the peace. Now the Emperor is dead, and a power struggle will take place, putting Cyrodiil even deeper in trouble.

 

And if Ulfric is such a terrible strategist, then how is he and Galmar and the Dragonborn able to defeat the legion and take Skyrim back? Using the voice is smart. In Nordic Tradition they are called tongues. Using the voice is a tool.

 

Torygg was to foolish to have taken Ulfrics advice. Sebille Stentar even says that he still would have sided with the Empire. Ulfric killed him because he was a terrible High King. Even in Sovngarde Torygg is only worried about Elisif, Ulfric is worried about Skyrim.

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak