Imperial VS Stormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

And the Reachmen are not peaceful. It may have been said "It was a peaceful Kingdom" in the book "The Bear of Markarth" But that book is written by an Imperial scholar who also wrote "Madmen of the Reach"

Igmund also says "It was little more that a chaotic uprising."

And By the way. Talos used the voice as well. So shouldnt he be considered a usurper? He may have even killed Reman Cyrodiil to become emperor? Who knows. But he did use the voice. To kill Reachmen.

 

Also the plans to invade summerset Isles, those arent just Ulfrics. They're also Galmars. Rikke knows Galmar is no fool. She says that herself. Galmar was a legionnaire during the Great War. He wasnt captured by the Thalmor or the Imperials, he also was at Markarth.

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[TheLoreSeeker]

TheLoreSeeker is right though, we dont know about the strength of the AD. They may still be trying to recover. They obviously dont have a fighting force capable of taking Hammerfell, which they want more than Skyrim so how could they take Skyrim? Or Cyrodiil? They cant. I still believe Skyrim should be independent.

 

As much as I'd like to be right about something in this.....that wasn't me. Unless you are referring to something I said like 8 pages ago about the AD possibly having power we do not yet know about.

[sisterof]

I'm glad to see the thread back to its tumultuous life.

mighty zog made some excellent points. I'd like to add that I don't think Skyrim has much of a chance attacking the Aldemeri Dominion, but that alone it can withstand any forces the Elves may muster. The Dominion has been relying solely in sabotage and infiltration, in weakening opposition indirectly and making individual people "disappear". The Empire is betraying Skyrim big time by allowing them to roam free in its territory. Once the Stormcloaks eliminate the Thalmor from inside their borders, Skyrim has very little to fear from the Dominion. As for an attack... I think that once the provinces all are independent and holding their own ground, the Dominion won't have room to expand anymore. The issue with keeping the Empire is that it lets the Thalmor grow roots and sabotage everything freely. We get absolutely no signs that the Dominion is still a military potency after the war - all we see is far more indirect means of domination, and them having their asses delivered by Hammerfell. I think an attack against the Elves will be made by allied, independent provinces. Not unified because of the reasons I just said - the Empire lets Thalmor infiltrate everything like a plague, there's no way to plan a counterattack when the Elves have eyes and pointy ears everywhere, and the ability to forge false intelligence.

I also like the point of "what it looks like from outside the game" vs "what a character inside that universe would think". Standing in my Dragonborn's shoes, it seemed like Skyrim could be crushed if alone, but it's also very disturbing to see the Thalmor camping in the woods with no opposition, not a single word from the Empire about a initiative to drive them off. It's much more serious than simply the ban on Talos worship. The Empire used up resources and the war took its toll on the provinces' levels of poverty, not to mention the number of dead soldiers. This point is often forgotten in the wave of "the Stormcloaks rebelled cause of Talos!!111". Skyrim was impoverished and left defenseless, and now must open its borders to the Thalmor freely, with no Jarls saying anything about it, not even the High King - who is not a boy by any means.

As for Ulfric's usage of the Thu'um... He isn't a follower of the Way of the Voice. The "ancient Nord art" the song tells about is not the Way of the Voice, but the Thu'um itself, without mention of any rules about its usage. So I don't think he was breaking any vows, as he is not a Greybeard, who are the only ones who do take the vow. I do think it was overkill to Shout Torygg but maybe it had something to do with showing that someone with willpower can stand the Voice, and Torygg couldn't. Ulfric says something along the lines of "anyone with enough determination and ambition can learn the Voice, my Shouting of Torygg proved he had neither" or similar thing. Maybe it was just to prove this point, that the High King had absolutely no willpower, instead just enjoying royal life and courting his young queen.


@HighkingUlfricStormcloak: Thanks for the chuckle. There is a method to my madness and a story to my nick, the fact that it sounds like some weird russian name or something is a fortunate coincidence. If you allow me to indulge your heart-to-heart, I am also minorly annoyed by the length of your signature, and your double posting when the "edit" button works (buggily - sometimes just hitting "full editor" solves the tag issue). Hopefully your annoyance will fade in time, I'm sure there are far worse things about my posts than merely my nick. :biggrin:

On a related note, the first time I saw TheLoreSeeker's nick, I totally read TheSoreLoser, my bad. And mighty zog's always makes me think of "take off every zig! for great justice!"

Edited March 31, 2013 by sisterof

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Ya I think my browser is bad or something. I use Opera, is that the problem? And Im looking into to shortening my sig, Im not sure which quotes I like the best though.

 

I dont hate your name, I hate the fact that I read "Sisterov" haha, sorry, poor choice in sentence structure on my part.

 

For some reason I get that <msbp> stuff. I know its the code for "enter" and quotations. Im not sure how to fix that.

 

A also hate when I edit after someone has quoted me. I feel like an as$. I try to do it quickly so they can catch my fix. Im trying to be as nice as I can but I get to angry or excited a lot.

 

I want to apologize in advance for attacking anyone personally. Im not here to do that, so if I do, im sorry.

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[MightyZ0G]

Talos was before Jurgen Windcaller and it is the teachings of Jurgen that give us The Way of the Voice that was taught to Ulfric and which he chose to ignore.

 

the problems of the Empire are a gang war in Bravil and Corsairs sacking a city in High Rock.

these aren't the worst problem that an Empire has had to face and are not insurmountable.

 

if the Reachmen were little more than a chaotic uprising then that lessens Ulfric's victory over them.

but according to the UESPWiki "With the Empire busy fighting the Thalmor, Markarth is left undefended. The Reachmen take the opportunity to overthrow the Nord occupiers, retaking The Reach easily. The changeover is relatively peaceful, with only a few of the harshest Nord landowners being put to death."

 

all that aside, you still haven't answered why Ulfric, and Galmar, with just the survivors of the civil war can do anything against the Dominion, even with the Dragonborn's aid when you state that the Empire including the survivors in Skyrim and the Dragonborn can't.

 

you still haven't said why Ulfric didn't give Torryg the opportunity to withdraw from the Empire as even Ulfric was aware that Torryg respected and admired him, mainly because Ulfric spoke up at the moot about independence for Skyrim.

Ulfric could have bent Torryg's ear and been the real power in a united Skyrim but he acted in a short sighted manner and has almost garanteed Dominion rule over Tamriel.

if Ulfric had had a bit more forsight he could have become a universally respected Jarl and then made a better challenge for the crown and become High King of Skyrim and then challenged the Emperor with a united Skyrim to back him up and, given the assumption that most of the Imperial controlled provinces are unhappy, possibly the assistance of High Rock and/or Hammerfell in the conquest of Cyrodiil.

all of Ulfric's actions have been short sighted and it has only been luck that has kept him alive this long.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Talos was before Jurgen Windcaller and it is the teachings of Jurgen that give us The Way of the Voice that was taught to Ulfric and which he chose to ignore.

 

the problems of the Empire are a gang war in Bravil and Corsairs sacking a city in High Rock.

these aren't the worst problem that an Empire has had to face and are not insurmountable.

 

if the Reachmen were little more than a chaotic uprising then that lessens Ulfric's victory over them.

but according to the UESPWiki "With the Empire busy fighting the Thalmor, Markarth is left undefended. The Reachmen take the opportunity to overthrow the Nord occupiers, retaking The Reach easily. The changeover is relatively peaceful, with only a few of the harshest Nord landowners being put to death."

 

all that aside, you still haven't answered why Ulfric, and Galmar, with just the survivors of the civil war can do anything against the Dominion, even with the Dragonborn's aid when you state that the Empire including the survivors in Skyrim and the Dragonborn can't.

 

you still haven't said why Ulfric didn't give Torryg the opportunity to withdraw from the Empire as even Ulfric was aware that Torryg respected and admired him, mainly because Ulfric spoke up at the moot about independence for Skyrim.

Ulfric could have bent Torryg's ear and been the real power in a united Skyrim but he acted in a short sighted manner and has almost garanteed Dominion rule over Tamriel.

if Ulfric had had a bit more forsight he could have become a universally respected Jarl and then made a better challenge for the crown and become High King of Skyrim and then challenged the Emperor with a united Skyrim to back him up and, given the assumption that most of the Imperial controlled provinces are unhappy, possibly the assistance of High Rock and/or Hammerfell in the conquest of Cyrodiil.

all of Ulfric's actions have been short sighted and it has only been luck that has kept him alive this long.

 

 

I have never said (and you didnt say it either) that Ulfric doesnt want to be High King. He does. He killed Torygg to prove a point, that he was weak, why let him continue to reign? Ulfric killed him because Toryyg was a fool an a kings throne.

 

According to Cicero's journal and the dialogue of many NPC's Cyrodiil is ripe with crime and drug wars.

 

"27th of Sun's Height, 4E 188. Wayrest is lost. The city fell to corsairs, and it's just a matter of time before the Sanctuary is breached. May the Night Mother watch over her children in their hour of need. 5th of Last Seed, 4E 188. We received word today - the Wayrest Sanctuary was raided and destroyed by the corsairs. There were no survivors. There are now only three active Dark Brotherhood strongholds remaining: The Cheydinhal Sanctuary, here in the Imperial province; a remote Sanctuary located in a forest in Skyrim; and the Corinthe Sanctuary of Elsweyr. The Black Hand has ordered the Corinthe Sanctuary closed, and its members integrated into our own ranks here, in Cheydinhal. I will embrace those new family members as warmly as I was, when I first made my home here."

 

"27th of Hearthfire, 4E 188. The situation in Bravil grows more dire. The city has erupted in violence, due to a war of control being waged by Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers. The Listener, Alisanne Dupre, has been forced to employ sellswords to protect her own residence."

 

"1st of Hearthfire, 4E 189. Cheydinhal has errupted into violece and chaos, like so many other cities before it. The Sanctuary has remained unbreached, but for how long? Our numbers are few, and with no Speaker, the contracts have dwindled almost to nothingness. Rasha's hold on the Sanctuary is slipping.

 

"I escaped fighting in Cyrodiil, only to have it track me down here in Skyrim." - Inn keeps, other NPC's.

 

Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, Galmar and the Dragonborn all have more will to fight. They will fight to the death, "Victory or Sovngarde!!" Translated: Victory or death!! - More will. The Empire cannot afford another war with the dominion. The Thalmor have eyes and ears inside the Empires top members. They have an HQ in Solitude, right there is proof that they can easily find out what the Empire is planning. Tullius makes little mention of planning to attack the AD because he knows they will find out if he says anything. Ulfric and Galmar announce it loudly and proudly that they will fight them.

 

"The legion is spread thin trying to keep the peace." - Brina Merelis an ex imperial captain.

 

Ulfric did challenge Torygg. In the old way, The old way is when another Jarl believes the High King is not fit to rule, so he challenges him to a duel and fight to the death. the winner is crowned the High King. But the Empire didnt want Ulfric in power because it would jeopardize their postition in Skyrim, so they molded it into the fact that Torygg was an Imperial citizen and framed Ulfric as a murderer, and drove him out of Solitude, then Roggvir allowed him to escape because it was the right thing to do, then he was killed by the Imperials for it.

 

The Reachmen also worship daedra and sacrifice humans. They needed to be driven out regardless of by who.

 

"I had a daughter, once. She'd be 23 this year. Married to some hot-headed silver worker or maybe on her own learning the herb trade.". Then he continues the story by saying "The Nords didn't care who was and who wasn't involved in the Forsworn Uprising. I had spoken to Madanach once, that was enough." - Braig, a prisoner in Cidnha mine. He isnt talking about Ulfric, hes talking about Igmund, the Jarl of Markarth.

 

And Jurgen Windcaller was way before Talos's time. Jurgen started the Way of The Voice and was the first Grey Beard. The Grey Beards taught Talos that he would become the emperor of Tamriel.

 

The AD doesnt have some hidden military. Like we keep saying, the AD's army was whipped out during the Great War and cant fight a war like they used to. Otherwise they would have taken Hammerfell by now and they clearly havent.

 

The empire just cannot go on like this, and its only getting worse. It cant help High Rock without risking opening its front to the Elves. It cant control its own cities, It has proven to weak to last much longer.

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[TheLoreSeeker]

Ulfirc always struck me as having a warriors viewpoint. He kills Torygg in single combat, in which he uses the voice to win immediately. He calls Torygg weak because because he couldn't defend himself.

BUT....IMO, It takes more than brute strength or combat prowess to rule a nation. It also takes wisdom, diplomacy, compassion, etc.

Ulfric's view is that strength is the most important and that is why Torygg was weak.....but I can't agree with such an barbaric viewpoint.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Its not all about Torygg, he was weak, truly, he was also more interested in pleasing Elisif than ruling Skyrim Righteously. Ulfric used the voice but did not kill him with it.

 

Dovahkiin: At helgen, they say you shouted the king to death.

Ulfric: Not entirely true, though not entirely false either, any Nord can learn the way of the voice by studying with the GreyBeards, given enough ambition and dedication. My shouting Torygg to the ground, proved he had neither. However it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him.

Dovahkiin: Why did you kill the High King?

Ulfric: I killed Torygg to prove our wretched condition. How is the High King supposed to be the defender of Skyrim, if he cant even defend himself.

Dovahkiin: Some call you a murderer.

Ulfric: I challenged him in the traditional way and he accepted, there were many witnesses, no 'murder' was committed. True, he didnt stand a chance against me, but that was precisely the point. He was a puppet king of the Empire, not a High King of Skyrim. His father before him perhaps but not Torygg, he was too privileged and too foolish. More interested in entertaining his queen than ruling his country.

Dovahkiin: What of his bride, doesnt she claim the throne?

Ulfric: Indeed, Elisif has become Jarl of Solitude, historically and conveniently home of the High King, backed by imperial interests. But the Moot has not met to name her High Queen, and they wont. Not as long as I have any say in it.

 

But like I've said before, you dont have to support Ulfric to be a Stormcloak. I love Ulfric, almost everything about him, yes I would fix many things about him but I love him for what he is. Ulfric has compassion, a lot really, he may be fighting to become HK but when asked -

 

Dovahkiin: Do you wish to become King?

Ulfric: We haven had a true High King for generations. For too long he's been hand picked by the Emperor and given emphatic nods by milk drinking Jarls, addicted to Imperial coin. It's time we had a real High King, one of our own making.

 

Later in conversation. -

Dovahkiin: You trained with the Greybeards?

Ulfric: Yes, they chose me when I was just a lad, it was a great honor of course. I was to become a Greybeard myself. I spent almost ten years at High Hrothgar, learning the way of the voice. Then the Great War came, I couldnt stand missing it. I often think about High Hrothgar, its very . . . disconnected from the troubles down here. But thats why I couldnt stay, and why I couldnt go back. I suppose the Greybeards care about Skyrims troubles, in their way. But I needed to do something about it. Im sure Arngier would call it 'one of my failings.'

Dovahkiin: So you know how to shout?

Ulfric: Yes, although I rarely use my training. The Greybeards believe the voice should only be used for worship of Kynareth. I have . . . fallen from their strict teaching, but I still dont think it should be used lightly. Not all of Arngiers lecturing was wasted it seems.

Dovahkiin: Arngier - He's a Greybeard?

Ulfric: Yes, the oldest and most powerful although he may not seems so. I doubt he's forgiven me for leaving. And for well, for what he considered blasphemy. For using shouts for anything but worship of Kynareth.

 

 

Also, correction to my last post. I am not saying the elves dont have an army, but Im saying that their army was weakened severely during the great war and showed that they cant take over Tamriel by force when they went to war with Hammerfell. But the Empire (not the legion alone) cannot go to war again because it will cause even more civil unrest within Cyrodiil and they show that right now they cant seem to put an end to it. So after they are weakened after another campaign, spent even more money, stretched even further, and pissed off more people, they will ultimately collapse. But thats saying that magically the legion can act on its own, which it cant. Last time there was no heir to the throne the Empire fell into the 'Stormcrown Interregnum' and burst into civil war with petty lords trying to claim the throne, until Titus Mede I took it by force and declared himself Emperor. So now the Empire will burst into even further strife, making it use even more resources and lose more power. There may be a chain of command but if the empires equivalent to head of the DOD were to take charge, he would have to get his orders from someone else, the equivalent to the Sec of State, who would need to get his orders from the Emperor. the Emperor has the final say, and now there is no emperor.

 

There is no proof or evidence that the Dovahkiin will become Emperor, only speculation and rumors. Like Lithium Flower said "The basic theme of the whole series is 'The Fall of the Empire'. As far back as Morrowind, they've been building up to it, hinting towards this inevitability. See the Talos avatar character Wulf's lines. Lots of dialogue in Oblivion establishes how unrest is growing in the peripheral provinces in contrast to the wealth and decadence of the centre and now finally we are witnessing its death throes in Skyrim.

You would have to ignore real world history, you would have to ignore TES history, you would have to ignore the themes in at least three previous games to argue that the Empire is magically going to be restored if only Ulfric is killed and by then you might as well argue that the new emperor will be Doctor Who in the Tardis."

 

For Mighty Zog -

 

Its been 30 years since the great war and the Empire has not recovered. So how can suddenly killing Ulfric make it easier to rebuild?

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[Kayyyleb]

Generals dont lead individual legions. Legates do. Garrisons are the separation of legions within each other. So roughly 2 garrisons per hold.

You are aware that there are varying ranks of generals, right? In US military terms, a 5 star general commands an entire branch (like the emperor in TES commands the army and navy). A 3-4 star general commands a theatre of operations involving multiple subordinate generals and their units (like the border between Cyrodiil and the AD). A 2 star general commands operations within a more specificed area or focus (like Tullius in Skyrim). A 1-star general or colonel commands a unit.

 

I would put Tullius at around the 2-star range. He commands a single unit (the 7th Legion) but is granted special authority that supersedes just military command of his legion putting him above a 1-star.

 

Legates on the other hand are more like officers between the ranks of captain and lieutenant colonel. They command smaller groups of soldiers either from a headquarters of sorts (hold capital) or a forward camp. They do not command entire legions like a general.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Im happy that you have enlightened me on this subject, but why then would they have Tullius say that. Maybe its a mistake or not, either way it doesnt make a difference.