Imperial VS Stormcloak

[LithiumPower]

 

So, Ulfric, Lithium, Kayyyleb, I have demonstrated that from Lore it has been suggested that the Empire and Hammerfell not only can but should become allies.

 

And, if Tiber Septim created the Empire as we knew it, then the existing Empire built by him previously on foundation laid by similar powers could restore the Empire as long as there exists a foundation. Which is currently under attack by the Dominion, Warlords, bandits, WGC and Ulfric's rebellion. Not defeated, but under attack. However if the foundation is destroyed thru any of the above means, the Empire will lose it's foundation and cannot be saved.

 

The difference between Luah Al Skaven's journal suggesting the possibility of a Skyrim-Hammerfell alliance and Legate Quintius' 'hopes' expressed in the epilogue of his book is that one is a barometer of the sentiment of Hammerfell and the redguard people and the other is not. When Luah Al Skaven speaks of the alliance as something being considered possible in Hammerfell, she speaks with the authority of being a redguard from Hammerfell not an imperial sitting in Cyrodiil writing about his utopic fantasies. Of course Cyrodiil wants and hopes that Hammerfell will come to its senses and rejoin them but Hammerfell as seen from multiple sources hates imperials as much as Galmar or Ulfric do.

 

the book Report: Disaster at Ionith is irrellevent as it is a completely different situation.

the Expeditionary Force had fortified 2 cities rather than continue inland then they became cut off from Tamriel and each other by bad weather over an exceptionally long winter.

the actual beachhead had been made and was successful. it was what was done after that lead to defeat, not the invasion by boat.

but even if it was rellevent, it would actually make it harder for the Stormcloaks to do anything against the Dominion as the only way for them to attack them is by sea.

 

given that the Empire crumbles completely if the Rebellion is successful then if the Dominion attack Skyrim from the sea they can resupply through Cyrodiil and High Rock. the Nords have to resupply their invasion of Summerset Isle by ship passing the coast of High Rock or Valenwood and Elsweyr which are effectively under Dominion control and possibly through Morrowind depending on how the Dunmer feel towards Skyrim with Ulfric's, and his followers', xenophobic attitude towards them and all elves.

the Dominion can move troops right up to Skyrim's borders going through High Rock or Cyrodiil but the Nords can't do the same.

 

to survive, Skyrim needs to keep Cyrodiil and High Rock under Imperial control to stop the Thalmor from having all those advantages.

 

and yes, I do think that up to 50% of the population of Skyrim will seek refuge in other provinces if any Imperial controlled provinces remain.

the break down is that roughly 25% are loyal to the Empire and 25% are loyal to Ulfric and 50% are basically neutral.

if Skyrim is invaded by the Dominion then the 25% that support the Empire will leave and of the 50% that are neutral, roughly half will also flee from the fighting if there is somewhere to go.

that is just the Nordic population.

all the Dunmer will probably leave. the Bosmer living in Skyrim could well join with the Dominion as militia. the Bretons, Redguards and Orsimer are just as likely to leave as stay but more likely to leave if High Rock or Hammerfell are still free from the Dominion.

Skyrim becomes a shadow of its former self and may just about have enough men and resources to defend Skyrim but they won't have enough to take the fight to the Thalmor.

if there is nowhere for that potential 50% to go then the first scenario is in effect and Skyrim is isolated and surrounded by the Dominion.

 

Ulfric has shown that he is not honourable.

not because of the way he engineered his challenge to Torryg but because on 2 seperate occaisions he used the Thu'um and neither could be said to be times of True Need.

"While the Greybeards are famed keepers of the Way of the Voice, the core precepts of the philosophy are still reflected in Nordic culture. What constitutes "True Need" may be the subject of debate, but it certainly does not include wars of conquest (and may not even encompass a single individual's survival). So, ever since Jurgen's epiphany, the Nords have mostly abandoned the use of the Voice in offensive warfare."

Ulfric learnt the Thu'um from the Greybeards and was taught the way of the voice yet he uses the voice twice when the philosophy of the way says he shouldn't.

once to defeat the Forsworn and once to defeat Torryg.

neither of those situations are True Need, especially when, in the case of Torryg, he had not exhausted diplomatic options. in fact he hadn't even started diplomatic options, which some consider would have been successful and allowed Skyrim to leave the Empire without the civil war.

 

Firstly, why is Report: Disaster at Ionith irrelevant? I brought it as an example of the challenges and difficulties of mounting an invasion across a wide expanse of sea.

 

The points that I find similar are:

1. the difficulties of maintaining supply routes across the sea subject to bad weather. Sea of Ghosts is known to have extremely harsh weather. In addition, the Dominion would also face piracy and harassment from Hammerfell and High Rock along the coast.

 

2. Holding a lodgement or beach head in unfamiliar territory cut off from the mainland. Let's assume the AD can capture Solitude or Dawnstar. Both holds do not have much in the way of food (Lots of conversation in the Solitude Court is about food shortage in Solitude). What is the AD army going to eat? Will they have to make a choice between bringing additional troops or farmers from Alinor?

 

3. Akavir was a harsh province that Uriel V's army knew nothing about. Skyrim is similarly a harsh province with plenty of natural defences that an invading AD force will not know much about and that the defending Skyrim forces can use to their advantage.

 

Ulfric does not suggest an invasion of Alinor as an immediate or even medium term goal. He lays down his priorities as 1. rebuilding skyrim, 2. preparing to fight the dominion on 'our shores' (suggesting he expects them to attack Skyrim by sea) and then mentions a possible invasion as a distant future thought.

Secondly, Cyrodiil is not going to completely vanish if the Empire were to fall. They would break into smaller administrative units, some falling under the influence of the larger powers closest to them. It will not be a park for the AD to just walk through and lay siege to Skyrim. Nor will the rest of the provinces sit idly by if the Dominion begin to advance across Cyrodiil. They will form an alliance like they did the first time the AD advanced across Tamriel.

 

I'm sorry, but you have given absolutely no evidence for the break down of Stormcloak/Empire/Neutral numbers you quoted. We have a list of stormcloak supporters in the Stormcloak document based on which we believe that a majority of the population of Skyrim supports the rebellion, the rest are neutral and a very significant but still minority number support the Empire. If you want to argue otherwise, you need to bring real numbers to the table.

 

Ulfric refuses to live by the pacifist ideal of the Greybeards, that does not make him dishonorable. He did not swear their oaths. He went off to join the Great War, then he fought against the Forsworn, then he fought against Imperial oppressions. All his life he has done nothing but fight for Skyrim. The Dragonborn also learns to shout from the Greybeards and ALL of us use our shouts other than the worship of Kynareth. He's no more dishonourable than the most goody two shoe Dragonborn.

 

Secondly, as far as Torygg is concerned. He had already pressed him to declare independence and had supported him at the moot on the understanding that he would declare independence as soon as possible. Torygg was King for several years and Ulfric saw that his interest in preserving the dignity of Skyrim was low compared to his interest in indulging Elisif. That is why he challenged him in 201. As I've stated previously. It wasn't that Torygg was playing golf one day and Ulfric just walked up and shouted him to pieces. Their political differences had been stewing since Torygg's own moot.

 

 

 

There are a few more posts I'd like to address, but in a bit when I have some more time on my hands.

[Mopel]

Completely agree with the posts so far. I'll just add a bit.

 

I want to make a point here first of all, the Empire will fail in defending itself again. The Dominion, as we see, is purposely weakening the Empire, and has successfully done it (considering you chose the Stormcloaks).

 

I wish people were not so ignorant to history. Occupations fail. Skyrim's climate, terrain, and large number of defensible forts would grind an invasion to a halt. Throw in organized raids on vital supply lines and it becomes a cluster ****

 

Also, if Skyrim leaves the Empire and gains independence, they would just have to worry about Skyrim itself, which would be easier to defend than the whole Empire, and thanks to the terrain and climate, a long campaign would be disastrous to the Dominion. After all, they would have to march all the way to Skyrim and then survive off the land on hostile lands with enemies that know the lay of the land and have nowhere left to run so their mentality would basically be kill or be killed, no other option.

 

Skyrim is capable of defending itself from a Dominion invasion, as is Hammerfell that already did it.

If the Stormcloaks ally with Hammerfell, the Thalmor are royally screwed. If they also ally with High Rock, the Thalmor are double screwed. So yeah, I'd say the Stormcloaks have a good chance of winning.

 

Once the Empire is out of Skyrim, a unified Skyrim would destroy the Thalmor (which are already weakened as well..)

 

The white gold concordant is meant to make the Imperials weaker by making them lose diplomacy with Hammerfall (the one thing Thalmor are afraid of), and start a Nord war at home.

 

People forget Hammerfell has defended itself and has the best natural warriors that exist, and that and the Thalmor had to track a brutal dessert to even get there. That can compare to winter attrition that the Dominion will receive in Skyrim.

 

A proper human family, no matter farmer or royality, can have four or more kids without any problems, while most elves have two or three, there are long intervals between each child.

 

So this just clarifies that the assumption that the Dominion is like China with almost limitless manpower is not true. Rather, with Skyrim and Hammerfell's climate (and thus population density), the Dominions birth-rate is near equal or lower on the Dominions part. And if you look at this chart (may not be accurate) There are more Nords than Altmer, across the entire continent of Tamriel.

 

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Demographics

 

 

The Dominion stood a chance, due to attacking the Empire along with their Bosmer and Khajiit allies. They were also in immediate proximity with the Imperial Capital and the Imperial army was spread out (unlike the Dominion, who simply have client states patrolling themselves), plus the Empire was weak at the time. The dominion was not taking on the rest of Tamriel, rather a large part of the Empire’s conscript armies.

 

 

Now I know the Dominion gave the Empire a run for it's money, but remember it was a stalemate. The Empire could continue fighting (because they retreated and regrouped in Skyrim,) but the Imperial city's citizens were being brutally mistreated, so they had to comply with the Dominions demands.

The Dominion may have banned Talos worship on purpose, to weaken the Empire, and they also received a free hand in Hammerfell. This broke off the strongarms of the Empire.

 

But, the Empire (if you side Stormcloak) is out of Skyrim, and Hammerfell single handily defended their land from the Dominion.

What the Dominion would not expect is if the two former strongarms of the Empire (Skyrim and Hammerfell, who have the greatest warriors in Tamriel by far) form an alliance to throw the Dominion out of their lands for good and attack Valenwood and Summerset isle, with Hammerfells naval power taking them there. I don’t know if the Khajiit are still going to help the Dominion though, considering rumors that the Dominion simply took credit for those moons coming back, and they are simply a client state.

 

Plus, remember how racist the Nords are? No Elf spy is going to be unseen as a result.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

For Mopel, welcome to the Forums. Its good to see a fellow Stormcloak.

 

I concur with 90% of everything you said. The only thing I would say differently, the racism. Many NPC's say "The Nords are, at best, suspicious of outsiders." But some are no doubt racists (Rolf Stone-Fist, Angrenor Once-Honered) but I would call them "prejudice" rather than racist. But thats my opinion really.

 

Best of luck further down range - prepare for a barrage of Imperial quotes and counter arguments. Ill help out wherever I can.

 

For Kayyyleb, I cant find it anywhere saying that Tullius is commander of the 7th legion. It exists sure enough but nothing is mentioned about him being the commander, I see the 9th legion, 10th, 12th, 18th, 1st and 7th. But none are mentioned to be in Skyrim other than (mentioned only) - the 9th, 10th, and 1st, went to Akivir and never returned. But none are said to be in Skyrim. Its obvious to see that there is one or more but I dont find it anywhere saying which one or how many.

 

Wait scratch that. I found a link - It says the 4th legion is in Skyrim being commanded by Tullius.

 

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Legion

 

So only 1 legion is in Skyrim. A legion consists of 5,000 men roughly. So we have to assume that the Stormcloaks have an army of greater or equal force depending on which side you take.

 

I say that the Empire is weak in government and economy. Militarily the Imperial Legion out number (as to in game logistics) the Nords but it appears that Numbers arent the pivot in strategy. Its about who has the advantage and superior tactics and fighting ability. The Nords show they have outstanding fighting ability, as do the Redguards, also they show they have the will for it, the drive for it. Taking the Stormcloaks side you see that Galmar is of equal strategic capability with Legate Rikke. And we cant assume that the Stormcloaks are using "everything they have" to combat the legion. They arent fielding all of their forces at once. So they could have reserve armies waiting in camps in Eastmarch or wherever.

 

Talos showed that during the battle of Sancre Tor, that numbers mean nearly nothing, he caught the Nords and Bretons off guard and flanked them. He used tactics and surprise to win the day, because he knew that a standard siege would have meant the end of his army.

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The Journal represents all Redguard hatred for the Empire, this is how Bethesda passes on the information.

- Why would Hammerfell side with an Empire that abandoned them, and sold them out? Its a long shot for any alliance between Hammerfell and the Empire and by long shot I mean longer than any shot ever fired.

 

She talks about going to war with the Empire - "Would that the Stormcloaks had half their sense. We could have used them to push the elves right off the continent and formed a new state to combat the empire." So - "Lets pray that a nation we betrayed and sold out will ally with us to help kill an enemy we are incapable of combating." Thats a hopeful gesture, not a thought out plan.

 

If the Empire was so worried about everyone, then why in the past have they been focused on saving Cyrodiil?

 

She doesnt damn the Stormcloak cause, shes upset that they are just now realizing the Empire for its true self. -

 

"And now, when I am so close, a war breaks out. The sleeping bear of Skyrim, who would not come to aid us in Hammerfell, awakens now that the Empire has abandoned them as well. They think they know suffering at the hands of the Empire? They know nothing. I would see both the Empire and these sons of Skyrim into Oblivion myself."

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

A legate who wishes for the unlikely.

 

A wife who states the obvious.

 

You must be ignoring that the Empire - royally screwed everyone but the citizens of Cyrodiil.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

 

The difference between Luah Al Skaven's journal suggesting the possibility of a Skyrim-Hammerfell alliance and Legate Quintius' 'hopes' expressed in the epilogue of his book is that one is a barometer of the sentiment of Hammerfell and the redguard people and the other is not. When Luah Al Skaven speaks of the alliance as something being considered possible in Hammerfell, she speaks with the authority of being a redguard from Hammerfell not an imperial sitting in Cyrodiil writing about his utopic fantasies. Of course Cyrodiil wants and hopes that Hammerfell will come to its senses and rejoin them but Hammerfell as seen from multiple sources hates imperials as much as Galmar or Ulfric do.

 

Other than Skaven being a Redguard, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that she represents the entirety or the majority of Hammerfall's opinion of the Empire. You are overlooking two things.

 

1) She lost her husband in the Great War, and the fact that he was fighting the Thalmor in a "pointless war" meant nothing to her, the only thing she did seem to care about was how the Imperials didn't return his body, they cremated him. For her, the hatred of the Empire is personal and if it's personal then that's more of her opinion based on circumstance and certainly not all Redguards will share it.

 

2) Skaven's journal is by no means a "ringing endorsement" for the Stormcloaks to ally with Hammerfell. It's a blessing and a curse. The last paragraph refutes the idea of an alliance completely and also paints Ulfric as an opportunist and not a true crusader. She recognizes this difference, as do I. With Ulfric basically not doing anything about anything until it's convenient for him, her final thought on the matter is to see both the Empire and the Stormcloaks in Oblivion. By your viewpoint, then it would seem the Redguards view the Stormcloaks as not doing anything to save them just like the Empire did... Because either way Hammerfell stood alone, except for the Legion left behind by the Empire.

 

So, this piece really does not help your cause at all because if you are to say that this reflects Redguard sentiment, then by her final thought the Redguards don't think very Highly of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks because they did not have Hammerfell's back either.

 

On the other hand, Justianus Quintius, a Legion Veteran who was "there" writes his piece in a very rational, consistent manner. There is no trace of "utopia fantasies" in his piece unlike Skaven's, being wrought with emotion and bitterness with actual fantasies....

 

... ... ...

 

It really comes down to which piece is more reliable, that written by an enraged Redguard Widow who is mad at the Empire for cremating her husand in as she describes a "pointless war" with no mention of his sacrifice in the cause for Freedom?

 

Or an Imperial Legion veteran who knows the score, just came from the War and seems to have a firm understanding on where the game is going next and is worried about how everyone will be affected by what's coming?

 

"All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat."

 

Never does he waver or change his stance unlike Skaven and his piece is written of a more mature and warrior like mind.

 

 

In the end, I wonder who will win the day?

 

1) The opportunist(s) who *apparently* could have done something and did nothing.

 

OR

 

2) The guy(s) who abandoned them, yet did just enough to secure their freedom? (History has shown they would have almost certainly lost otherwise)

 

Place your bets folks!!! :biggrin:

 

 

You forgot an important point.

 

It was the Nords who saved the empire, not the empire. The Nords saved the Empire when they stormed the White-Gold Tower.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Where does she call Ulfric anything, thats a false claim "she paints him an opportunist" Thats a straight up lie. She doesnt even mention Ulfric.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

 

The difference between Luah Al Skaven's journal suggesting the possibility of a Skyrim-Hammerfell alliance and Legate Quintius' 'hopes' expressed in the epilogue of his book is that one is a barometer of the sentiment of Hammerfell and the redguard people and the other is not. When Luah Al Skaven speaks of the alliance as something being considered possible in Hammerfell, she speaks with the authority of being a redguard from Hammerfell not an imperial sitting in Cyrodiil writing about his utopic fantasies. Of course Cyrodiil wants and hopes that Hammerfell will come to its senses and rejoin them but Hammerfell as seen from multiple sources hates imperials as much as Galmar or Ulfric do.

 

Other than Skaven being a Redguard, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that she represents the entirety or the majority of Hammerfall's opinion of the Empire. You are overlooking two things.

 

1) She lost her husband in the Great War, and the fact that he was fighting the Thalmor in a "pointless war" meant nothing to her, the only thing she did seem to care about was how the Imperials didn't return his body, they cremated him. For her, the hatred of the Empire is personal and if it's personal then that's more of her opinion based on circumstance and certainly not all Redguards will share it.

 

2) Skaven's journal is by no means a "ringing endorsement" for the Stormcloaks to ally with Hammerfell. It's a blessing and a curse. The last paragraph refutes the idea of an alliance completely and also paints Ulfric as an opportunist and not a true crusader. She recognizes this difference, as do I. With Ulfric basically not doing anything about anything until it's convenient for him, her final thought on the matter is to see both the Empire and the Stormcloaks in Oblivion. By your viewpoint, then it would seem the Redguards view the Stormcloaks as not doing anything to save them just like the Empire did... Because either way Hammerfell stood alone, except for the Legion left behind by the Empire.

 

So, this piece really does not help your cause at all because if you are to say that this reflects Redguard sentiment, then by her final thought the Redguards don't think very Highly of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks because they did not have Hammerfell's back either.

 

On the other hand, Justianus Quintius, a Legion Veteran who was "there" writes his piece in a very rational, consistent manner. There is no trace of "utopia fantasies" in his piece unlike Skaven's, being wrought with emotion and bitterness with actual fantasies....

 

... ... ...

 

It really comes down to which piece is more reliable, that written by an enraged Redguard Widow who is mad at the Empire for cremating her husand in as she describes a "pointless war" with no mention of his sacrifice in the cause for Freedom?

 

Or an Imperial Legion veteran who knows the score, just came from the War and seems to have a firm understanding on where the game is going next and is worried about how everyone will be affected by what's coming?

 

"All those who value freedom over tyranny can only hope that before it is too late, Hammerfell and the Empire will be reconciled and stand united against the Thalmor threat."

 

Never does he waver or change his stance unlike Skaven and his piece is written of a more mature and warrior like mind.

 

 

In the end, I wonder who will win the day?

 

1) The opportunist(s) who *apparently* could have done something and did nothing.

 

OR

 

2) The guy(s) who abandoned them, yet did just enough to secure their freedom? (History has shown they would have almost certainly lost otherwise)

 

Place your bets folks!!! :biggrin:

 

 

How did they secure their freedom when they are not allowing them to worship their god? Hm? Thats a bit hazy to me, also considering that a large percentage of Stormcloak soldiers are ex legionnaires who fought for the empire in the great war.

 

We have established that The Stormcloaks are not opportunists, your in denial of this by continuing to call them such.

 

"So why did you join the Stormcloaks?"

"My cousin disappeared one night, some say the Thalmor grabbed him. Wasnt long before I found myself Under Ulfrics banner."

 

- "Im a true Nord. Its as simple as that."

- "I dont want some snotty elf telling me what Gods I can and cant worship."

 

Dovahkiin to Ulfric: Why are you fighting this war?

Ulfric: Were fighting because were done bleeding for an Empire that wont bleed for us. Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the dominion, and for what? Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his throne. Were fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind to their peoples suffering. Were fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and theres no one else but us."

Edited March 31, 2013 by HighkingUlfricStormcloak

[MightyZ0G]

the situation between the Empire invading Akavir by sea and the Dominion invading Skyrim is very different.

 

the Empire was restricted to crossing a sea to resupply

the Dominion could resupply through Cyrodiil, High Rock or Morrowind as well as by sea

can you see the difference?

the Empire could not resupply or reinforce the Expeditionary force

the Dominion doesn't have the same restrictions

 

about Talos using the Voice, I stand corrected, the Way of the Voice was created before him, but Talos was Dragonborn.

"It is believed that a Dragonborn's abilities are a result of being blessed by Akatosh, and that a Dragonborn is sent to defend mankind from evil.

Since that implies that there is a great evil from which mankind needs defending, and that the Dragonborn will need the thu'um to stop it, any use of the thu'um by a Dragonborn is presumed to be done in a time of True Need"

Talos' use of the Voice doesn't go against The Way but Ulfric isn't Dragonborn and he has used the Voice when there was no True Need.

 

as for the Reachmen worshipping Daedra, so what? the Orsimer and Dunmer also worship Daedra.

even the Dragonborn can worship Daedra and even perform human sacrifice to them.

 

Ulfrics actions have been short sighted and more for his glory than for the people of Skyrim.

seeing as how Torygg is seen as weak willed and a puppet, it should have been easy for Ulfric to have made him into his puppet.

then Ulfric could have set about taking over the Empire and reforming it with Skyrim as the dominant power.

Ulfric is a big fish in a little pond when he could have been a big shark in an ocean and benefitted everyone in Tamriel who opposes the Dominion.

his actions have alienated a lot of his potential allies.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

 

as for the Reachmen worshipping Daedra, so what? the Orsimer and Dunmer also worship Daedra.

even the Dragonborn can worship Daedra and even perform human sacrifice to them.

 

Nords used to worship Dragons lol

 

Some Deadra are pretty cool actually. Like how the Dunmer worship Azura.

 

 

They worship the evil Daedra. Azura and Meridia are not entirely evil. As quoted by Bethesda, not me.

 

the situation between the Empire invading Akavir by sea and the Dominion invading Skyrim is very different.

 

the Empire was restricted to crossing a sea to resupply

the Dominion could resupply through Cyrodiil, High Rock or Morrowind as well as by sea

can you see the difference?

the Empire could not resupply or reinforce the Expeditionary force

the Dominion doesn't have the same restrictions

 

about Talos using the Voice, I stand corrected, the Way of the Voice was created before him, but Talos was Dragonborn.

"It is believed that a Dragonborn's abilities are a result of being blessed by Akatosh, and that a Dragonborn is sent to defend mankind from evil.

Since that implies that there is a great evil from which mankind needs defending, and that the Dragonborn will need the thu'um to stop it, any use of the thu'um by a Dragonborn is presumed to be done in a time of True Need"

Talos' use of the Voice doesn't go against The Way but Ulfric isn't Dragonborn and he has used the Voice when there was no True Need.

 

as for the Reachmen worshipping Daedra, so what? the Orsimer and Dunmer also worship Daedra.

even the Dragonborn can worship Daedra and even perform human sacrifice to them.

 

Ulfrics actions have been short sighted and more for his glory than for the people of Skyrim.

seeing as how Torygg is seen as weak willed and a puppet, it should have been easy for Ulfric to have made him into his puppet.

then Ulfric could have set about taking over the Empire and reforming it with Skyrim as the dominant power.

Ulfric is a big fish in a little pond when he could have been a big shark in an ocean and benefitted everyone in Tamriel who opposes the Dominion.

his actions have alienated a lot of his potential allies.

 

 

Why have a weak king rule? No Skyrim doesnt need a puppet king. Torygg was a puppet king. He, even in Sovngarde, is and was only truly worried about Elisif. Many 'tongues' used the voice to further themselves in 'non' needed cases, this doesnt make Ulfric evil. Ulfric never swore the vows of the greybeards and even mentions that he doesnt like using the thu'um.

 

 

It was the Nords who saved the empire, not the empire. The Nords saved the Empire when they stormed the White-Gold Tower.

 

Not according to her journal. The Great Bear of Markarth "slept" instead of intervening on Hammerfell's behalf, same as the Sons of Skyrim. The War had already ended for everyone else except Hammerfell. And not all Nords are with Ulfric.

 

>Where does she call Ulfric anything, thats a false claim "she paints him an opportunist" Thats a straight up lie. She doesnt even mention Ulfric.

 

Actually, she does, she comes right out and accuses him to his face, outright. The hint is the part about "Sons of Skyrim" so she is referring to the Stormcloaks, then with Ulfric also being known as the Bear of Markarth, so we clearly know who she is talking about.

 

How did they secure their freedom when they are not allowing them to worship their god? Hm? Thats a bit hazy to me, also considering that a large percentage of Stormcloak soldiers are ex legionnaires who fought for the empire in the great war.

 

An Imperial General intentionally leaves almost an entire "volunteer" Legion behind which made it possible for the Redguards to win Hamerfell's freedom. And the Thalmor never forced the Empire to stop Hammerfell from not being able to worship whatever God, just Talos alone.

 

 

We have established that The Stormcloaks are not opportunists, your in denial of this by continuing to call them such.

 

"So why did you join the Stormcloaks?"

"My cousin disappeared one night, some say the Thalmor grabbed him. Wasnt long before I found myself Under Ulfrics banner."

 

Then what's been established is in-accurate. And I didn't say that, Skaven did. I just happen to agree with it. I'm sure not all Stormcloaks are opportunists but she makes it clear that their cause is opportunistic (at least when it comes to foreign policy) because they slept, uninterested in Hammerfell's affairs and only going active when the Empire threatened their interests. So, the Stormcloaks were never concerned with Hammerfell problem's.

 

I wonder.. if to some degree seeing how her husband was killed by the Thalmor after the Markarth incident, and the Stormcloaks an official fighting force at and after Markarth, that she blames the Bear of Markarth and the Sons of Skyrim for her husband's death as much as the Empire?

 

4E 175 - WGC

4E 176 - Markarth Incident

4E 180 - Stros M'kai

 

 

She never says "Ulfric is an opportunist" like you claim. She is talking about all the Stormcloaks. Of course they didnt help Hammerfell, they couldnt. They were busy taking back the reach, busy trying to take Skyrim back from the imperials.

 

Her husband was an Imperial soldier. He fought for the empire, thus meaning he died during the great war.

 

The term 'sleeping' doesnt mean ignoring or denying. It means unaware or sitting by. Admiral Yamamoto referred to America as a sleeping giant.

 

The Stormcloaks werent concerned with Hammerfell because they were pre- occupied. Your manipulating the information to you benefit.

 

They also stopped the worship of Talos. Bethesda wrote that dialogue, not me. So dont try and say "oh it wasnt all the gods."

 

Look at the facts, Your in denial.