Imperial VS Stormcloak

[MightyZ0G]

it makes perfect sense if you remember who he is talking to and the fact that everyone else also says that Ulfric shouted Torygg to death.

 

Ulfric is being really nice and saying that he didn't kill Torygg with the shout while talking to THE DRAGONBORN. the 1 person in all of Tamriel that he knows he needs on his side more than anyone else and also 1 of the few people who could beat him as easily as he beat Torygg.

 

the better story, that his shout is that powerful, also makes the duel even more dishonourable so, in my opinion, Ulfric did lie about it for that very reason.

[sisterof]

I don't get why people keep saying that all Ulfric had to do was to sit and have a nice chat with Torygg over tea (since Torygg was such a fan). How come the High King didn't ever think of acting against the WGC (again, I point out it's not just the Talos issue, but the freedom the Thalmor enjoy, their sabotage and the impoverishment of Skyrim) by himself and needed someone to push him to it? It also strikes me as odd that everyone keeps saying Torygg only cared about court life and entertaining his queen. And once you find him in Sovngarde he proves exactly those words - all he cares about, all he asks about, is Elisif. Not Skyrim - his homeland and kingdom. Not the war. Elisif. His sole regret, those are his own words, as a man and king was leaving a widow. To me that speaks volumes about his ability to lead, and his initiative.

We have conflicting accounts of the duel. Some people say Ulfric killed Torygg with the Thu'um, some say with a sword. Saying that the Voice defeated Torygg, though, suits both scenarios. He was defeated in the moment Ulfric Fus Ro Dah'd him, regardless of having his heart pierced later or not.

We don't know if Torygg would have done anything had Ulfric talked to him - though I do agree Ulfric should have given him the chance. Ulfric cared more about proving a point - that the High King and Jarls forgot about Skyrim and became "milk drinkers" addicted to Imperial coin. And that the Nords were having not only their wealth drained by a failing Empire, but their culture crushed - both in the way Jarls ruled, the way High Kings were chosen, and the way Talos was worshipped.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the "old Nord way" is not something ancient and nearly forgotten. It is the culture of Skyrim - Skyrim is not Cyrodiil. Just like in Morrowind slavery and so on were commonplace and part of daily life while in Cyrodiil it was not - you cannot push your own concept of law/civility into a different culture. It's the same issue we had with colonies in the real world, or with christianising. They are still barbarians, much like vikings were in the time they were around - it is not "wrong" and it is not "delayed". It is their culture, period. It's not like he is resurrecting a long dead code of honor - it is the way Skyrim operates, and would operate more if the Empire hadn't pushed their own laws and customs down the Nords' throats.

[Anska]

I don't really think it makes the duel any more or less honorable either way. From the way Sybille Stentor talks, Ulfric would have probably stood better chances in a fight even if he had solely relied on his sword-arm. Then again, the duel wasn't really about a honorable fight in the first place. According to Ulfric himself and many other NPCs you can ask about it, the duel was meant as a statement and a message to the Empire and the other Jarls of Skyrim. Ulfric was just taking advantage of a traditional right to challenge the High King so he could deliver this statement within a legal -if disputably so- framework to support his actions. Ulfric also concedes, that it was an unfair fight and Torygg never stood a chance (he sounds pretty smug about it too). The only thing Ulfric rejects, is being called a murderer, which would brand him a criminal by all standards, because it is important to him that his image remains intact.

 

You could say, Torygg died as a symbol of the Empire or of what the Empire has made of Skyrim: A High King supported by the Empire's coin who does the Empire's every bidding and is more interested in his beautiful wife than in running his country, someone who doesn't know how to shout, someone who hasn't seen battle but lived in comfort all his life. Ulfric challenged him on grounds of some traditional right and attacked him with a distinctively Nordic ability, which had been used by many great nordic Kings and Generals before him. If he could have killed him with this ability too, it would have made an even stronger statement. So why deny it? I bet he loves the rumor, that he shouted Torygg to death.

 

I agree that the way Ulfric deliveres his anecdote is aimed at winning the Dragonborn over, that doesn't necesarily make it a lie. Apart from that, I don't know how you feel when a guard tells you, that they heard Ulfric Stormcloak murdered the High King - with his voice - shouted him apart. My initial reaction always is: "Yeah, sure. I know my fus'ro'dah well enough, but I can only actually kill someone with it, when I have a handy cliff nearby and it never ever tears someone apart." (Tinfoil-hat insert: Of course Ulfric could always have a secret pact with Hermeus Mora to enhance his thu'um!) As a result, I don't pay too much attention to the guards' chatter. The people who were actually present when it happened seem to have been much too shocked by the duel itself and by the shout to remember it very clearly, so their stories remain rather vague. Ulfric seems to be the only one involved, who had his wits about him at the time and he also delivers the much more credible story, I am inclined to believe him

 

It certainly wasn't Ulfric's finest hour. Personally I would have liked it better if he had tried to talk Torygg into stepping away from the Empire too, but I can understand why he did what he did. Strangely, what bothers me most about this incident is precisely that it was only means to an end. He killed someone to make a point - in cold blood.

 

Edit for typos as usual...

Edited April 6, 2013 by Anska

[sisterof]

@Anska: I think that as far as Nord tradition dictates, as Skyrim's culture dictates, the duel was honorable. I agree with you in all other points, Ulfric really pushed the buttons with that decision. It would have looked far better if he had tried to reason with Torygg before - and since Torygg would still be the spineless puppet he was, the duel would come to pass anyway. I've pointed out before that I think Ulfric chose the Thu'um as a first attack precisely because someone with a high willpower could withstand it (you can't disarm just anyone, and once you meditate with Paarthurnax you cannot be staggered either- so the Dragonborn has enough willpower to be immune to Ulfric's Thu'um). With that move, he proves Torygg was no High King at all, he simply fell to the ground dazed and unable to react. I like your point about it being also part of his "true Nord" act, as the Voice is the "ancient Nord art" the heroes and kings of past dominated.

It's a good point about believing the story that Torygg died by the Voice. The people who tell is are mostly same people who say that say he was "shouted apart", which we know is only somewhat possible, in a few circumstances, by a very powerful Dragonborn - and it turns people to dust instead of nice gory bits.

I'm not bothered by the killing in cold blood. It was a duel, which Torygg accepted - he would have been humiliated in case of denial but he had the option. Ulfric has been a soldier under the Empire, a warrior against the Forsworn, so he's pretty pragmatic when it comes to sacrifices. He even admits that "Whiterun is just a means to an end" - to prove his army has the same resolution and dedication he has. He has proven courage in marching into Solitude and defeating the High King knowing it would label him as a criminal and make him chased all across Skyrim by the Empire. With Whiterun, he is quite aware sacrifices will be made, dutiful guards will be killed, for the sake of showing his army means business. He talks about it with Galmar too - "we know the price of war".

Edited April 6, 2013 by sisterof

[Kayyyleb]

 

I'm not bothered by the killing in cold blood. It was a duel, which Torygg accepted - he would have been humiliated in case of denial but he had the option. Ulfric has been a soldier under the Empire, a warrior against the Forsworn, so he's pretty pragmatic when it comes to sacrifices. He even admits that "Whiterun is just a means to an end" - to prove his army has the same resolution and dedication he has. He has proven courage in marching into Solitude and defeating the High King knowing it would label him as a criminal and make him chased all across Skyrim by the Empire. With Whiterun, he is quite aware sacrifices will be made, dutiful guards will be killed, for the sake of showing his army means business. He talks about it with Galmar too - "we know the price of war".

When the cure is worse than the disease.

[TheLoreSeeker]

2 things.

How the duel was won was a moot point. Using the voice goes against the teachings of the Greybeards....the respected Masters of the Voice.

Whether or not voice or sword killed Torygg isn't relevant. All we know is that he used it....which isn't technically cheating, but it definitely isn't an "honorable" duel at that point.


Second point. WHY is it such a crime that Torygg cared about his wife and was worried for her when he died? Isn't it expected that a person would worry about the loved ones they left behind? His country would be fine without him...he knew that when he accepted the duel. But his wife...that is another story.

I just don't see why people go "he only cared about her. That means he was a bad king." Wouldn't the fact that he cared about family make him a good man?

The truth is we don't know what kind of king he was because he's dead when we start the game; but his court liked him, his queen liked him, and at least half his people and aristocracy liked him. So that speaks of his credentials as king somewhat.

And look at Elisif. She was his queen and ALL she cares about is the people of Skyrim....wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that she didn't just suddenly have a personality switch once Torygg died. I think it's fine to assume that she's running court in a similar fashion to what he did.

[Anska]

I'll write more later but right now breakfast is waiting so allow me two questions on an empty stomach:

 

@Sithis17: Just how is Galmar being angry that the Bretons don't want to separate themselves from the Empire an act of or motivated by compassion? He's emotional about it, like he's emotional about everything, but I can't see any compassion in there. (Unless there is some meaning to the word that I don't know yet, which I wouldn't completely count out - after all, I only just realized that "moot" is a normal English word too :blink: .) And secondly, what makes you say Ulfric is a bad friend to Glamar?

 

Edit: Make it three questions: which Talos worshiper in Markath was treated badly by the Stormcloaks?

Edited April 6, 2013 by Anska

[MightyZ0G]

Sithis never said that Galmar had compassion for the Bretons.

he said that Galmar called the Bretons "another flavour of Elf" and implied that Galmar would happily march on High Rock to wipe them out.

 

Ulfric knew that his challenge wasn't above board before he made it.

he made preparations for the gate to be open so he could run away after killing Torygg.

everyone thought Ulfric was there to persuade Torygg to leave the Empire and reject the WGC but Ulfric had planned to kill Torygg from the start and knew in his own heart that it would be murder and that he didn't have the full support of all the Nords or he would never have left Solitude. he would have sat on the throne and proclaimed himself High King.

 

Ulfric is the perfect tool of the Thalmor. he thinks he is acting against them and uses that as his rallying cry but everything he does after his "interogation" and "escape" has been part of a Thalmor plan.

1) the Markarth Incident allowed the Thalmor to enforce the WGC and operate freely in Skyrim.

2) the rebellion tied up the Imperial army in Skyrim and lead to the deaths of Imperials, Nords, Bretons, Dunmer and Orsimer while the Thalmor could sit and watch and laugh.

3) with the Empire busy in Skyrim, bandits, smugglers, corsairs and other undesirables are able to operate more freely in Cyrodiil and High Rock.

 

Torygg, on the other hand, acted in true Nord tradition and accepted the challenge honourably, even though he knew that he was going to die.

if he was such an Imperial puppet, he could have had Ulfric arrested and turned over to the Thalmor for Talos worship rather than face him, but he didn't, he behaved like a true Nord with honour.

don't forget that Torygg was a devout follower of Talos and also respected Ulfric (primarily because he spoke out against the WGC), and like the rest of his court, thought Ulfric had come to Solitude to discuss independence for Skyrim and the free worship of Talos.

seeing as Hammerfell had already left the Empire because of other clauses in the WGC, Torygg could have easily been persuaded to do the same and Skyrim would have been free and united under the High King chosen by the Jarls of Skyrim.

no civil war, no brother against brother or father against son. just a united Skyrim with potential allies and free trade with the rest of Tamriel.

 

Ulfric may well have been a true Nord and an honourable man before the Great War, but, in my opinion, once he was in a Thalmor prison he was brainwashed into doing everything that followed.

[Sianama]

Ulfric is a supporter of 'the old Nord ways', that he wants to bring back. He wants to remind the Nords what they once were and what was their way of handling things. And the Nords were famous for the use of their voices. Torygg can use s shout too, all Nords can. But he was probably not prepared for such a thing, he was a duelist, not a veteran fighter. Think of how High Kings became High Kings in most of the lore-books about 'early times'. They killed someone, then there was a war and then they were High King.

And if Stentor says, Torygg would have listened to Ulfric, I think she's lying. She's a freaking vampire and has her own agenda and she educated the man. Sayma says, Torygg wasn't even a good king, he held endless speeches about the Empire here, the Empire there and that was all he did.

And if the Empire hadn't wanted Torygg to die, why didn't they step in before the duel? I mean, Ulfric came and made an official challenge for a duel to the death, everyone including Torygg knew, Torygg was going to die and noone interefered. He didn't charge in and kill him right at the gate. Only _afterwards_ suddenly it's being declared murder by the Empire.

And if you ally with the Empire, you find Ulfric and Galmar in Sovngarde too, so it can't have been that dishonorable, or Ulfric wouldn't even be getting this chance to fight Tsun and get into the Hall of Valor. (Imagine Torygg against Tsun... tahahahaha, couldn't even stand one second against Ulfric^^)

 

I think the only thing worth discussing is if it's desireable to get back to those 'old ways' of solving things through violence. But there you could argue that the Nords even in the times of the Empire held their greatest heroes in high esteem and those heroes were heroes because they were great warriors, wiped whole races from the face of the world (Ysgramor! and less Nord but still a hero even to the Nords: Pelinal) and/or were masters of the Thu'um. Do you think anyone in Skyrim would remember Ysgramor still, if he had simply remained a scolar and historian?

 

Edit: Despite what I wrote, I agree with mightyzog, it _could_ have been done differently. Had Ulfric been as thoughtful at the time he challenged Torygg as at the time he says to Galmar, he doesn't want to kill all the Jarls, he would prefer winning them over by negotiations, things would have gone different. And it's true, it was the Thalmor's plot to make Skyrim fight internally. But I guess, then again you can say, it's not Ulfric's fault. After you have been broken by torture you stand only a very small chance to reason things out in a way we for example can, when we only look at the situation in retrospection. And Ulfric was already mad at the Empire by that time, that they gave him to the Thalmor at all. It's probably not so easy to change a prophesied fate, written in an Elder Scroll ^^

Edited April 6, 2013 by Sianama

[Anska]

@sisterof
I guess Ulfric's ability to kill in cold blood is an accompanying trait to something, that I otherwise rather like about him: he is not especially bloodthirsty. When listening to him and Galmar talk, Galmar is trying to push the Civil War forward while Ulfric is constantly trying to stall it. First he hopes for Balgruuf to eventually come around and join him, later he is rather reluctant about giving the order to start the war for real. Granted, there are a lot of possible reasons for this: not wanting to damage the land he wishes to take over, saving his own resources and his precious public image. But if I look back to all the dialogue you get with Ulfric, I am also willing to believe, that he has simply seen his fair share of killing in his life and doesn't want to needlessly add to the count. So while he doesn't shy from violence when he deems it necessary, he on the other hand seems unwilling to cause unnecessary casualties too. This goes as far as offering the second in command of the opposing army to simply walk away in the end, just because they had been shield-siblings in the past and he seems to hold her in high regard. I completely agree with you that what I call cold-bloodedness, is some kind of pragmatism which comes from his past as a soldier, I'm just not very comfortable with it still.

It's odd really. When I read Stormcloaks vs Empire arguments, most people seem to argue that the Stormcloaks would be alright if it wasn't for Ulfric, while I think that Ulfric isn't as bad as he is often painted but have major issues with many of his supporters.


@TheLoreSeeker
What makes a good or bad king largely depends on the expectations you place into the role. While we can't judge Torygg's ability as a High King ourselves, I agree with you that he probably ran his court in a similar fashion to Elisif. Meaning he relied heavily on his councilors, was very loyal to the Empire, was a generally nice person, kind to his subjects and well adapted to the sophisticated life in the Blue Palace, where sword-fighting is more a matter of etiquette than of necessity. Cut short, Torygg probably was a good High King by imperial standards. But those aren't exactly everybody's standards.

If you ask Sayma at "Bits and Pieces" about Torygg, she tells you, that she doesn't think he was such a great king exactly because he made such a fuss about the Empire. If you look at all the great High Kings of Skyrim from legend, they were usually experienced warriors and strong leaders who lived up to the Nords' moral ideals (and some could use the Voice). This doesn't sit too well with the assumed picture of Torygg either. Ulfric, lastly, also seems to expect of a king that he lives for his country, while Torygg's own words place Elisif on the number one position in his heart. That he cares for his wife doesn't make him a bad king, it just makes him a loving husband. However, his statement, that his only dying thought was about the widow he left behind, supports one of the reasons that don't make him a good king in Ulfric's eyes - he cared more for his wife than for his country. So you can probably be a good man/ husband and a bad king at the same time, just as in Captain Aldis's eyes Rogvir was both an honorable, good man and a traitor.

While I am not sure if really all Elisif cares about are the people of Skyrim, I agree with you that she is doing her best to be a good Jarl to her people and takes her job very seriously. - And there is no way she deserves all those snide remarks she gets from Ulfric about being bought by the Empire.

Edited for the usual.

Edited April 6, 2013 by Anska