Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Anska]

To clarify that: my question about the compassion topic wasn't meant in a bad way, I just stumbled over the paragraph, it confused my so I rather ask before taking it the wrong way. So thank you for explaining. Edited April 6, 2013 by Anska

[MightyZ0G]

I think the real question should be about whether Ulfric really is his own man acting for the benefit of Skyrim or whether he is an unwitting tool of the Thalmor.

personally I think the latter is most likely considering that Skyrim and the Empire are suffering because of the rebellion and the Thalmor can sit back and watch them kill each other.

 

also remember that without the intervention of the Dragonborn, the Stormcloaks can't win in Skyrim yet the Empire has already shown that it can win without any help (until a dragon messes up everything).

 

Ulfric's military career is captured near the begining of the Great war, defeated the Reachmen by using the Thu'um, arrested after the Markarth incident, won a duel under dubious circumstances then ran away, captured again just before the events at Helgen.

he may be a veteran of the Legion but he isn't a great military leader by any stretch of the imagination, although he is very good at making rousing speaches.

Edited April 6, 2013 by mighty zog

[TheLoreSeeker]

In reality its probably more along the lines of Torygg represented Post-United Empire Nord Culture, which seems to be more inclusive and treats Skyrim as part of a bigger picture (i.e. The Empire of Tamriel); while Ulfric represents a Pre-United Empire Nord Culture, that values strength and "the old ways" and sees Skyrim as an individual kingdom.

[Sianama]

About the 'damn the Jarls and damn the moot'-speech from Ulfric. That was something that bugged me a little in the beginning too. But when he keeps talking he specifies his words. He says, he does not want them to put Elisif on the throne, and he will do anything to prevent that. I thought at first: well, she may be a little over-enthusiastic and child-like, unexperienced, but surely awayre of her peoples' suffering and maybe even thoughtful. Until I talked to her at the Thalmor party. I was absolutely speechless after that. She says the Thalmor are so nice and they have the best parties, she wished they'd throw parties more often and doesn't know why the Nords despise them so, it must be because they are all barbaric fools. I felt the urge to drag her to Northwatch by her hair.

And I personally agree with Galmar, Ulfric should just kill the Jarls, maybe with the exception of Balgruuf and Idgrod. And the ones that just wait to be Jarl when the Empire takes over too, almost each and every one of them. Clean out the Black Briars completely, along with the Silver-Blood (Igmund is not an inch better, so he's due too) and Skyrim would already be a better place. Follow up with Siddgeir and Skald and while you're at it, get Laila and her sons too. Well, maybe you can just wait till Skald dies from old age, it's due some time soon and just have someone watch him, so he doesn't start yet another war, this time against the giants >.<

As I wrote earlier, I think that the Empire has fallen already and the rest of it needs a good purification. Best start with the council. So you'll have to have some people who really care about what is going to happen to Skyrim and not just their purses or personal lives. And then start rebuilding from there, if you have to rebuild (which is what both the Empire and the Stormcloaks say anyway).

[Kayyyleb]

About the 'damn the Jarls and damn the moot'-speech from Ulfric. That was something that bugged me a little in the beginning too. But when he keeps talking he specifies his words. He says, he does not want them to put Elisif on the throne, and he will do anything to prevent that. I thought at first: well, she may be a little over-enthusiastic and child-like, unexperienced, but surely awayre of her peoples' suffering and maybe even thoughtful. Until I talked to her at the Thalmor party. I was absolutely speechless after that. She says the Thalmor are so nice and they have the best parties, she wished they'd throw parties more often and doesn't know why the Nords despise them so, it must be because they are all barbaric fools. I felt the urge to drag her to Northwatch by her hair.

And I personally agree with Galmar, Ulfric should just kill the Jarls, maybe with the exception of Balgruuf and Idgrod. And the ones that just wait to be Jarl when the Empire takes over too, almost each and every one of them. Clean out the Black Briars completely, along with the Silver-Blood (Igmund is not an inch better, so he's due too) and Skyrim would already be a better place. Follow up with Siddgeir and Skald and while you're at it, get Laila and her sons too. Well, maybe you can just wait till Skald dies from old age, it's due some time soon and just have someone watch him, so he doesn't start yet another war, this time against the giants >.<

As I wrote earlier, I think that the Empire has fallen already and the rest of it needs a good purification. Best start with the council. So you'll have to have some people who really care about what is going to happen to Skyrim and not just their purses or personal lives. And then start rebuilding from there, if you have to rebuild (which is what both the Empire and the Stormcloaks say anyway).

Everything you just said is wrong on so many levels I can barely bring myself to accept that a human being wrote this post.

 

Ulfric should just kill all the jarls except the ones you like? Systematic assassination is how Ulfric is going to start his reign? If so, he has no right to be king and Skyrim is better off without him. Exterminate the entire families of Black Briar and Silver Blood just because you don't like them? All in the name of a pathetic excuse of doing it for the "good of Skyrim"? Basically you're trying to repeat the French Revolution or a Communist revolution of systematic extermination of all opposition. This doesn't lead you to a better Skyrim. This will lead you into a dictatorship and rule by fear and intimidation.

 

What you propose is disgusting to the extreme. Anyone wanting to compare Stormcloaks to Nazis needs only read this post to have all the ammo in the world.

[Sianama]

 

About the 'damn the Jarls and damn the moot'-speech from Ulfric. That was something that bugged me a little in the beginning too. But when he keeps talking he specifies his words. He says, he does not want them to put Elisif on the throne, and he will do anything to prevent that. I thought at first: well, she may be a little over-enthusiastic and child-like, unexperienced, but surely awayre of her peoples' suffering and maybe even thoughtful. Until I talked to her at the Thalmor party. I was absolutely speechless after that. She says the Thalmor are so nice and they have the best parties, she wished they'd throw parties more often and doesn't know why the Nords despise them so, it must be because they are all barbaric fools. I felt the urge to drag her to Northwatch by her hair.

And I personally agree with Galmar, Ulfric should just kill the Jarls, maybe with the exception of Balgruuf and Idgrod. And the ones that just wait to be Jarl when the Empire takes over too, almost each and every one of them. Clean out the Black Briars completely, along with the Silver-Blood (Igmund is not an inch better, so he's due too) and Skyrim would already be a better place. Follow up with Siddgeir and Skald and while you're at it, get Laila and her sons too. Well, maybe you can just wait till Skald dies from old age, it's due some time soon and just have someone watch him, so he doesn't start yet another war, this time against the giants >.<

As I wrote earlier, I think that the Empire has fallen already and the rest of it needs a good purification. Best start with the council. So you'll have to have some people who really care about what is going to happen to Skyrim and not just their purses or personal lives. And then start rebuilding from there, if you have to rebuild (which is what both the Empire and the Stormcloaks say anyway).

Everything you just said is wrong on so many levels I can barely bring myself to accept that a human being wrote this post.

 

Ulfric should just kill all the jarls except the ones you like? Systematic assassination is how Ulfric is going to start his reign? If so, he has no right to be king and Skyrim is better off without him. Exterminate the entire families of Black Briar and Silver Blood just because you don't like them? All in the name of a pathetic excuse of doing it for the "good of Skyrim"? Basically you're trying to repeat the French Revolution or a Communist revolution of systematic extermination of all opposition. This doesn't lead you to a better Skyrim. This will lead you into a dictatorship and rule by fear and intimidation.

 

What you propose is disgusting to the extreme. Anyone wanting to compare Stormcloaks to Nazis needs only read this post to have all the ammo in the world.

 

 

Pardon me? We are talking about a game. A game where genocide seems to be a heroic thing, murder is a day to day business and there is no such things a 'courts' or 'judges' only despotism and/or who has the most money says who is going to die or not. Are you really comparing that to our world? Then ofc I take back everything I said. But then I will have to stop playing the game completely, because in real life I'm a die-hard pacifist and never, ever, ever would see war as a 'good' measure for anything. I don't go around killing people, I don't even shout at people.

This is a game, a game about war, a game that involves killing. The only thing it has in common with real life is that there is no black and white and if you really take the time to listen and read you notice that everything can be seen from at least two sides and everyone has a justification for their actions. And it shows how propaganda works. ^^

 

Where did I say that I don't like these Jarls? I quite like Thongvor actually and I like Dengeir. After talking to him for a while I also like Skald. I absolutely adore Balgruuf and yet I fight against him in my game. What I was saying is, that the system on which both the Empire and Skyrim are running is corrupt. Jarls that say it's fair if their city falls, that they should escape make me sick. Jarls that treat their housekeepers like dogs or sit upon their thrones completely oblivious to what is going on outside their castle make me sick. If this was realy life, I'd simply go to a demonstration (don't know if that is the correct word, I hope so >.< ) and/or elect someone else at the next elections or join a citizens' group. But in this game that is no option. It's either revolution or submission. Ever read the book "The Windhelm letters" (especially the end)? Or The Song of Pelinal? That is how change happens in that world. What I was saying was: that change is overdue in that world again. If anything can be compared to the Nazis in this game it's the Thalmor, heck, they even use their reasoning and language almost to the letter ^^

[TheLoreSeeker]

I don't like Maven Black-Briar as much as the next man....but since Riften is OBVIOUSLY run on well maintained criminal business, she WOULD be better for it than Leila....who seems kind of ignorant of the problems.

[Sianama]

Sithis17, on 07 Apr 2013 - 01:53, said:

@Sianama

 

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaang man. And I thought I was pretty "extreme". All of the sudden I feel a whole lot better about the Empire. This is what will probably happen to their game when Ulfric the Clown takes over as High King. It also strengthens and reinforcements every point I made recently about how we need peace and unity, not blood, unnecessary sacrifice, ranting and raving about Nord culture then don't follow it and pre-meditated murder of nobles who simply won't agree with you. That post displayed Ulfric's mentality to a T.

Yes, that is right, I was making Ulfric's point. Do you want me to make the Empire's now? Ok, here we go:

 

The Empire is a force that has for eras been the strength of humanity. It's unity and organisation. It may have it's dark sides, but what it also has is exactly those darks sides that are able to find and fight enemies and threats to humanity. Without common people ever noticing, without stirring emotions much. We may have to put up with people who look away if the right person pays and with people who are not much aware of the common peoples' needs anymore, but those very people are the ones who have the means and the power to keep the Empire strong to secure the wealth it needs, so its citizens don't have to go back to living in caves. And the Empire has a strong army, that has proven its worth many times now. It needs only a little time to secure the position again.

Ulfric and the Stormcloaks seem not to be aware that the Empire does not want the Thalmor to take over the world, but quite the contrary, it is struggling to keep its forces together and prepared for the next war that will inevitably come. Ulfric's death will secure the peace in Skyrim and free the resources needed elsewhere to react to the real threat that is coming towards us. If Ulfric was half the man he claims to be and half the warrior he claims to be he would see, or maybe he would already have seen what the Empire lost and how its people suffered, he would not take them down that path again, only to get his revenge on Titus Mede, who didn't come and rescue him from the Thalmor, poor boy.

He knew very well that it was a dangerous game he was playing in Markarth and he knew very well that the Thalmor were still a threat and not going to look the other way, because they were waiting for a reason to stir unrest. He played completely into their hands, even though he knew exactly what they were able to do if they'd get the chance. That is why Ulfric has to die. And inner peace has to be secured even by forceful means, because even though the Empire might not be what it once was, it is the only hope we have, if we want to stand a chance against the Thalmor threat. As a united mankind we might stand, but divided we will fall. And if Skyrim can hold the peace, even if they don't like the White-Gold-Concordat, maybe we can make Hammerfell see the reason the Emperor made that decision too and they might join us once again in the battles to come. Unity is our only chance for freedom, that Ulfric claims to be so concerned about, and maybe even the only chance for the survival of human culture as we know it.

 

 

Edit: And yes, I know, that probs we (as players) won't get the chance to organise a 'new' Empire or even the new government of Skyrim (no matter who we sided with^^). So we can't go all Wulfhart, kill everyone we don't like and reinstate what we like with a flaming sword or a roaring tongue. If we play the game with a concern for Skyrim's future in our DB's head, then we will have to leave some organisation, logistics and government intact, because without it, Skyrim stands no chance for anything, with or without Empire. Which is why I never kill Thonar in my games, even though I rather hate him^^ or I never even thought about killing Maven (making her non-essential would not be such a big thing I guess?^^). Because as despicable as they might be, they have power, they have influence and they know how to organize things and be aware of everything that goes on and act accordingly. It's not nice, but it's not about being nice. The same with the Trading Company. They are not nice at all, but they have the means of transportation, they have their people everywhere in the world, they know how to handle power. So they are going to be needed, nice or not.

Which is probably the whole reason why Ulfric doesn't take Galmar's advice to kill all Jarls, but tells him he prefers patience and negotiations and would rather have them on his side than kill them.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Sianama

[sisterof]

Eh, I don't see why the gang banging on Sianna. What's wrong with thinking the powers-that-be in the Empire need to be changed, or that other Jarls need to step down? I disagree with killing them, as some of the ones she mentioned really cannot stand in a duel at all, but I still don't see reason for this hostility. Please people, remain civil, it's just a game, and it's real people talking here, who deserve way more respect than any fictional character regardless of how passionate you feel about said characters.

Moving on, excellent point about Elisif talking only about how parties are great and the Thalmor are actually nice. The fact that she's a nice young woman has nothing to do with her ability to rule. She means well, I see that too, but she's largely naive and ignorant. She may grow to be a strong woman, but she is not one yet. And don't forget that Ulfric allows her to keep her title of Jarl in Solitude (an extremely important city), regardless of her childlike mentality, because her people like her for some reason. And of course her people would, their conformists as much as she and Torygg are - you don't need a strong, intelligent Jarl when all you do is sit back and accept the status quo while the Empire keep letting the money and comforts flow in.

@TheLoreSeeker: It's great Torygg is such a nice guy as to be so in love with his recently-wed wife. But that is hardly synonym of "loves his family" - there is no family, there's his wife. We don't see him fighting for his sons and daughters, for he has none. All his sweetness could be true, of course, and he could grow to be a proud and caring father, but so far it could be nothing but infatuation with his bride. And I do find it majorly significant that he dies leaving Skyrim still being drained of resources by a failing Empire, with Thalmor running freely, and in the brink of a CIvil War, and all he cares is his lovely dear lover. I agree with you that compassion is a great thing, and he could have such gift, but all compassion I see from him could (and I'm aware we don't have enough evidence to say for sure either way) be simply love puppy talk.

[Sianama]

So as to not step on even thinner ice with some questions that I'd really like to ask, I'll ask one that is way less provoking (I hope^^):

 

Is there any explanation why the Empire just lets Hammerfell go (abandons it, as some NPCs ingame put it) without much trying and puts so much effort and ressources into keeping Skyrim in line? I've asked myself that all game long, but I can't really find a reason, apart from maybe 'sentimental' ones, but that can hardly be it.