Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Sianama]

The thing is: they are not the first ones to leave. Not even second. ^^

Personal opinion incoming: The Empire is dead. It's been dying for decades, it has lost almost everything that it was made of. Skyrim is indeed the last chance, that there might be a force to lead against the Thalmor, because it is the only thing that is really left of the Empire. Cyrodiil will erupt in chaos, once the Emperor's death will be known.

I have recently played the Stormcloak side of the civil war again and in the end Ulfric states, that while there will be tenuous peace for a short time, soon the Nord will be called to arms again, in Skyrim or somewhere else, but they will be ready to once again lead the fight for the human cause (I do not know, if these are his exact words in English, as I am re-translating it^^).

 

I think what is also important is the religious thing. In the game-world it is a _fact_ that Gods exist. You can see what they do, it's not only a vague hope or faith, it is fact. Is is also a fact that those Gods are fighting each other, be it elven Gods vs human Gods or Aedra vs Daedra and they do so largely through armies that they recruit from mortals, at least for their fight on Nirn and at least in the beginning of those wars. I think it is very important that once again the 'human' God is being challenged. And that human God always had close ties with Skyrim and therefore Skyrim has a history of war against elves. That is not only a thing of race or people using religion as an excuse, as it would be in our world, that is Nirns very real history. And at least this time it wasn't the humans that started the fight. ^^

[Moody]

Just a quick point

 

You are misrepresenting the lore when you say "Skyrim is the birth place of the Empire" it isn't

 

The Empire was founded by Emperor Cuhlecain when he united Cyrodiil - Talos was a famous General within this fledgling Empire.

 

Talos became Emperor Tiber Septim after Cuhlecain was assassinated by the Breton's.

 

Cyrodiil was the birthplace of the current Empire - Skyrim was the birthplace of its greatest Emperor.

[TheLoreSeeker]

I think what is also important is the religious thing. In the game-world it is a _fact_ that Gods exist. You can see what they do, it's not only a vague hope or faith, it is fact. Is is also a fact that those Gods are fighting each other, be it elven Gods vs human Gods or Aedra vs Daedra and they do so largely through armies that they recruit from mortals, at least for their fight on Nirn and at least in the beginning of those wars. I think it is very important that once again the 'human' God is being challenged. And that human God always had close ties with Skyrim and therefore Skyrim has a history of war against elves. That is not only a thing of race or people using religion as an excuse, as it would be in our world, that is Nirns very real history. And at least this time it wasn't the humans that started the fight. ^^

 

I don't think that the machinations and desires of the Aedra (or the Daedra for that matter) are something either side can use in the debate. They are simply too much of an unknown to rely upon. We're not even really all that sure that the Elven Gods and the Human Gods are different people. I mean...as far as lore goes theres reason to debate Akatosh and Auri-El as being the same person....and if that's the case...who do we trust?

[Sianama]

 

 

There are no less than three times during Season Unending where Ulfric puts his personal conflicts *before* those of "Skyrim and it's people." Judging by Ulfric's conduct during Season Unending, it's clear he's neither willing to die for Skyrim or willing to work with the Empire.

 

1) Ulfric has to be "persuaded" to attend the council and do the right thing, he's more worried about his "personal image with the other Jarls" and politics rather than putting a stop to the Dragon menace. Tullius reluctantly agrees right away if it could mean a truce.

2) While I agree that negotiating with a Thalmor at the table is in fact, a conflict of interest for him, I'm a little concerned at his brazen emotional response and threatening to leave. I can understand how he hates the Thalmor, however being a leader requires you to sometimes deal with people whom you dislike personally. What's he going to do if for the good of Skyrim and it's people, he has to deal with the Thalmor in the furture?

3) After Tullius asks for a hold in return, Ulfric started squalling like a little kid... I mean... I remember looking over there and Ulfric had left the table again with two empty chairs, it was so bizarre. Ulfric acted very immature during the entire ordeal.

 

Gen Tullius was collect, reasonable and relatively calm the entire time. Even when the other Jarls disagreed with his decision(s), which were necessary to secure peace and were not favorable to the Empire. He never tried to run away or change his mind based on what someone else thought, although he did listen to them.

 

So at least for me, it seems that the Empire does care more for Skyrim and it's people than Ulfric, as for the Stormcloaks who knows. Gen Tullius has excellent leadership skills while Ulfric is a hot mess. For a second there, this is so weird, but I thought Tullius was the High King of Skyrim. :smile:

That was my impression too, the first time I did Season Unending (for the Empire side then)

But the thing is... If you do that very same quest and you are on Ulfric's side, it suddenly goes the other way. Ulfric stays calm, yes he demands the Thalmor get out, but he sits down at the table anyway, even if you decide to let her stay. And later on Tullius is the one who wants to leave, because he doesn't get what he wants, until Esbern intervenes. Ulfric is the one to call his Jarl and Galmar to reason, when they get angry because the Empire wants something. He says they will do what he thinks is best for Skyrim and he will surrender hold to the Empire if that is the price for it.

And in the beginning all you do is mention Alduin and he agrees to the peace meeting at once, no more talk of politics.

He is still shown as hot headed ofc, but nothing in comparison to how childishly he behaves when you are on the Empire's side.

So I'm afraid that it is your choice in the matter that changes not only the course of the war, but also changes the people taking part in it in a way. That would go with Arngeir's statement, that the Way of the Voice helps you in more ways than in combat and combat is really only the least way to apply the Way.

 

And about the desires of the Aedra: Ofc theys don't directly say: go here, do that, etc (Maybe except for Mara and Dibella in their respective quests and Arkay with Florentius ;D ). But you can hardly deny that the Thalmor indeed fight against the human God and you can hardly deny that a Dragonborn was sent to the world by the Divines. And that Dragonborn has the power to thwart the Thalmors' plans for Skyrim. They want the war to continue, their most important goal in Skyrim is that no side gets the upper hand and you have the power to make it stop, because you are the one to give one side the chance to win."... As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed."

So really it probably won't matter to the Divines which side wins, as long as one side does, because that is what will disturb the Thalmor plans. And it is also possible that this time it's like with the Ayleids, which was indeed not a war 'elven Gods vs human Gods' but more 'Aedra vs Daedra' (which is probably why some Ayleids allied with the humans too). True, we don't know that. But what we know is, that the Divines sent someone with the power to defeat the Thalmors' cause in Skyrim, simply by choosing sides. So there is divine intervention there and that I think tells us something about the importance of this war. It is not a mere war of succession, it is bigger and it's got something to do with Skyrim and its old mysteries and history.

 

Oh, I found the quote I was looking for earlier, when I said I was only re-translating it :) Here are the original words: "There will be peace for a time, during which we must rebuild Skyrim into the land it once was. Strong. Self-reliant. The center of mankind. Because getting rid of the Empire was only half the problem. Soon, the elves will again seek to rule the world. We must ready ourselves to fight them. For it will be Skyrim that shall lead Tamriel in those dark days, when the fate of the world is finally determined."

Edited April 9, 2013 by Sianama

[Anska]

Thank you Moody, I'll read up on this.

Season Unending, while being one of my favorite quests, only ever left me feeling very sorry for Argneir - he must have had a rather bad headache afterwards. Depending on whose side you are on and what you do with Elenwen, either Tullius or Ulfric remains tolerable while the other one gets mad, Ulfric looses his cool while Tullius starts taunting and threatening him on a personal level. It's both not so very charming in my opinion. I usually don't let Elenwen stay though. Allowing someone's personal berserker button to attend when you actually want to create a neutral environment, never struck me as such a good idea - especially after finding out that Elenwen was responsible for torturing Ulfric Apart from that, she is only interested in prolonging the CW, so she has no place what so ever at a peace-council. While this is my attempt to be as objective as possible, Tullius unfortunately doesn't seem to agree with me about it. ... and you have to persuade both of them to come to the meeting. I guess it just gets harder or easier, depending which side you belong to. When my Spellsword tried to invite Tullius, for example, he told her something along the lines of that he didn't mind the dragons so much, as long as they weakened the Stormcloaks as well...

But then, I do like both characters and don't feel like demonizing either of them. They both have their moments which make them likable and then there are those occasions during which they sink to a very special level of low.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Anska

[TheLoreSeeker]

I tend to stay neutral in season unending. It usually results in a compromise I'm OK with.....except Markarth goes over to Thongvor....but then again...Markarth is pretty screwed up anyway.

[Sianama]

The first time I did Season Unending I was hoping that you could actually arrange a peace-treaty there. But since you can't I usually try to be as fair as I can manage. Both the Reach and the Rift end up with criminals as their Jarls, and the Empire gets one more minor Hold. As I never find out what massacre they're talking about (there was nothing of the like in Karthwasten, everyone's alive and well including the mercenaries) I usually decline paying anything for it.

And if you let Elenwen stay, she only once tries to provoke Ulfric, but he doesn't take the bait.

 

Poor Arngeir has a very realistic view on things from the beginning on. If you tell him you're going to get them to make peace, he tells you he's afraid that's impossible. And after you've defeated Alduin he's very relieved, even though he says maybe the world is meant to end and you should let it before. So that makes me a little easier with all of it then. :)

[TheLoreSeeker]

I usually kick Elenwen out, Trade Dawnstar and Winterhold to the Imperials, refuse to pay for the "massacre", and hand over the Reach to the Stormcloaks.

I see this as a fair trade...because it keeps the war stalled at a stalemate while trading out 2 bothersome Jarls and NOT sacrificing Riften to Maven (although it would probably be better for the economy).

Since the Reach is surrounded by Imperial property it doesn't strengthen the rebels either, but it does cut off the Imperial cash cow so any Imperial warmongers can't profit on it.

[Sianama]

I let Elenwen stay one time, because I wanted to see what Ulfric would do then. After it's nothing noteworthy I usually go with my own dislike for her and kick her out ^^.

 

I can't remember exactly if Ulfric makes the first move if you're on the imperial side, but in my case the last time I did SU Tullius starts and demands the Rift, and I get the chance to give the Stormcloaks either the Reach or something small (Falkreath or Morthal, for example). So there I trade big for big. Then I refuse to pay and afterwards I'd feel like a jerk if I didn't give them at least something, so I hand them over a minor Hold. One time it was Winterhold, and last time it was the Pale. I'm ok with both, as I think that the Jarls of those Holds are stupid anyway ^^ Ulfric is usually quite pleased and gives me that sword, that you receive if you act in favor of your allied side, even though I'm unsure, what is the reason for that, because the Empire actually got more than the Stormcloaks in my version, except for the 'minor decisions' (Elenwen and paying). But as long as everyone sticks to their promise it's ok anyway and ofc they always do :)

 

And if you continue the CW you get an angry speech from both Ulfric and Tullius for what you have to get back from the other side, no matter what you did in SU, even if they were pleased then >.<

[Anska]

I just noticed, that I never bothered with the Jarl of Winterhold enough to even know if he really bothers me. All I can remember is, that he is trying to return Winterhold to its former glory, doesn't like the college and obviously doesn't do background-checks on his employees. I think I never even finished his quest... Apart from that you just gave me something to think about, Loreseeker. So far, when trying to respect the spirit of High Hrothgar by making fair decisions, I always tried to trade holds of equal value - I never thought to trade in a way, that hinders the war most. I'll definitely keep this in mind for the future.

The "massacre" is one big fraud in my eyes. I've never seen any of the soldiers do anything worse to civilians than not paying tabs or steeling lumber. So I don't agree to compensation if my character is either neutral or values the respect of the Greybeards over his/her political interests, but will make a decision in favor of my character's side otherwise. As for the Rift, my thief handed it over to the Empire because it seemed like a fair trade and .... well, he was on his best way to become Guildmaster at the time, so it seemed to be a really good choice from a personal point of view too. He was quite pleased with himself afterwards, since he could at the same time be just and utterly self-serving.

Thongvor is actually one of the Stormcloak Jarls about whom I revised my previously low opinion. When I handed Markarth over to him for the first time I thought, that giving the Reach to the Silver-Blood family, was just as bad as giving the Rift to Maven. Afterwards I dropped by to visit Calcelmo for some reason and eavesdropped on some dialogue between Thongvor and his court; during the first scene Thongvor stated, that he thinks it more important to keep the Reach safe from dragons than from Forsworn or Legionaires, while he didn't give in to his Steward's advice to show a more boot-lickery attitude towards Ulfric in the second scene and orders him to draft a letter to demand more men from Ulfric anyway. After witnessing this, I thought, that maybe he isn't such a bad pick after all. He seems rather dedicated to his new job, is more interested in doing said job than pleasing Ulfric and, opposed to Maven, he doesn't seem to exploit his position for his family's sake. Maven otoh ... I once did the skooma-dealer quest while she was in charge and finished it in the certain knowledge, that I hadn't banished skooma-dealing from the Rift, I had just helped monopolizing it.

Edit: The counting system for SU is really a bit odd as Elenwen's presence, the "massacre" and the exchange of a minor hold are equal in value. I think, that's also what makes Ulfric's outburst at the end of round one appear so out of place. If you allowed Elenwen to stay, the quest's counting-system will consider him to be at a disadvantage even if you have made an apparently fair choice by exchanging Markarth against the Rift, so Ulfric's temper gets the better of him and the player is left to wonder where the outburst came from. Otoh, he will be okay with trading a minor hold against the Rift as long as he doesn't have to be in the same room as she is.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Anska