Imperial VS Stormcloak

[tnu]

 

actually i'm not a marxist. I'm an individualist anarchist. This doesn't preclude marxism mind you it jsut doesn't necessitate it. many forms of voluntary orginization could exist under it including a marist community. so long as all particpents are willing and fully consensual.

I said you weren't, and was explaining that we could come into conflict (basing that off a few discussions with anarchists at the Marxism Conference).

 

 

Oh i'm sorry I didn't intend to misrepresent you. it was a miscocneption on my part.

[tnu]

What abotu a legendary Dragonbone Dagger?

[Anska]

Quote

The Empire allows Talos worship unofficially and Baalgruff just takes it one step further. That's like saying, officially the Imperial Gov doesn't recognize Talos, however the Empire never said anything about what private citizens can and can't do. It's like it was merely a suggestion to private citizens to not worship Talos until Uflric started stirring the pot. Like what Alvor was saying.

That's a bit like saying, if the government outlaws drugs, it's merely a suggestion you don't sell, buy or use them privately. I'm sure, many drug-dealers would rejoice. The treaty with the Thalmor makes worship of Talos illegal for everyone. The law was just very poorly enforced until the Thalmor rapped the Empire's knuckles about it. The people who still worship Talos, do so illegally, meaning they are breaking the law by following their believe, marking them criminals. For someone who usually tries to be a good citizen that isn't exactly a comfortable situation, just as having to lie about your believes isn't.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Anska

[Kayyyleb]

 

The Empire allows Talos worship unofficially and Baalgruff just takes it one step further. That's like saying, officially the Imperial Gov doesn't recognize Talos, however the Empire never said anything about what private citizens can and can't do. It's like it was merely a suggestion to private citizens to not worship Talos until Uflric started stirring the pot. Like what Alvor was saying.

 

That's a bit like saying, if the government outlaws drugs, it's merely a suggestion you don't sell, buy or use them privately. The treaty with the Thalmor makes worship of Talos illegal for everyone. The law was just very poorly enforced until the Thalmor rapped the Empire's knuckles about it. The people who still worship Talos, do so illegally, meaning they are breaking the law by following their believe. For someone who usually tries to be a good citizen that isn't exactly a comfortable situation, just as having to lie about your believes isn't.

It's not an ideal situation but the point he's making is that Ulfric (probably motivated by the Thalmor) created a situation which gave the Thalmor the excuse they needed to actively hunt Talos worshippers. Ulfric created a problem then presented the "cure" to gain support for his attempt at the throne. He blew the problem out of proportion and as a result Talos worship went from being illegal on paper to being illegal in practice. It's like when a country brags about violating a UN sanction. They get pressured back into their place. That's exactly what the Thalmor are doing since Ulfric decided to recklessly flaunt defiance of the treaty agreements forcing the Empire to allow the Thalmor a presence to verify that the Empire is keeping with it's deal.

 

Ulfric's complete lack of understanding or complete disregard for politics is not a good trait for a leader who will need to deal with other countries.

[Anska]

When the problem was created probably depends on whether you regard the law as a set of oppressive rules that restrict your personal freedom, which you follow as long as you like and call everything else a peccadillo. Or if you regard the law as a set of rules that regulate peaceful human(oid) coexistence ensuring everyone's safety. Whether you follow it for fear of punishment or out of principle.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Its a shame. They're shooting down Redguard as being "just us reaffirming our protection on an old property".

 

I guess now its really up to the Nexus to keep it alive.

Edited April 16, 2013 by TheLoreSeeker

[sisterof]

Yep, I also got disproportionally upset, SlayerKnight. As pathetic and ridiculous as it may be for an adult woman to say, Skyrim has been my sole source of support and comfort during the past months when depression hit the worst again. It was literally the only thing to brighten my days in several weeks. So it's very hurtful to see that we won't get a conclusion not only to the Civil War, but to the Dragonborn's tale. Both are now way under the rug.

BTW your argument about cooperation with the enemy should be applied to the Imperials too - they are effectively, directly allowing the Thalmor to spread influence and power. </Stormcloak'ing to the end> :biggrin:

I guess that means that in the next game we'll learn that shortly after the Civil War got (mostly) resolved, the Aldmeri Dominion invaded. So the moot never happens, we never get to know who was the next king, and Skyrim loses everything. What do you guys think?

I think I'll go weep some more.

[TheLoreSeeker]

Now we begin work on our own endings lol. Bring on the quest mods.

[Anska]

I think it was you who suggested in another thread that the next ElderScroll game might be about fighting the Dominion from inside, sisterof, wasn't it? I liked that idea and think it would be a very cool, if rather depressing, setting. Of course, I am a bit sad, that there won't be another DLC too. It would have been nice to see a bit more of the world and perhaps get a Moot with a possible twist. Then again, they were bound to move on at some point ... and I think, I still haven't completely explored all of Skyrim or Solstheim anyway.

 

Apart from that I wanted to excuse myself for my last post. That was, admittedly, a rather low shot, I hope nobody has taken offense. I guess, saying that I was tired isn't a very good reason, but it's the only one I can offer.

 

Kayyyleb, I pretty much agreed with you on the last page, that the demand from the Markarth Incident never was a good idea in the first place and the whole thing probably was a trap. My point above was, that calling laws mere suggestions distorts the whole setting. It sounds as if the Talos part of the WGC is just a joke to everyone, it isn't. The part really botheres many Nords, but while some rather endure it grudgingly than to suffer an ongoing war, others still believe it to be an unacceptable term - Jarl Leila even calls the rebellion a "Holy War" for this reason.

 

In my eyes, judging a medievalish (fantasy) world by 21th century standards doesn't make too much sense. Most of the concepts that are important for us now, probably wouldn't even exist in Skyrim and the other way around things that are important in Skyrim seem totally strange to us. The way I prefer to look at the CW is, to look at the motivations of the characters involved and wonder what makes them do, what they do. In this way I find ideas for the decisions of my own characters. I don't care, what the ultimately most sensible solution to the Stormcloaks vs Imperial problem is - if there even is one. Otoh I care very much about context.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Anska

[sisterof]

@Anska: I'm trying very hard to not be whiny and butthurt but I'm feeling quite betrayed that they didn't offer any sign of conclusion.

The Dominion storyline is indeed too big for a DLC (and Gods help me if they skip it altogether in the next game too), but I wish they would at least give us a "after the Civil War, the Dominion invades and conquers Skyrim". As it is, we have a story with no end (unlike any other TES game) and we'll have to wait some 5 or 6 YEARS to know what happens. THAT, brothers and sisters, hurts me deeply. I just want the chapter to be closed, even if it means a terrible and sad ending with Ulfric or Tullius and the Dragonborn being overwhelmed by the Thalmor and dying to defend Skyrim (which is what I think will happen). On another point, I don't understand Bethesda's reasoning.

Skyrim is a huge game, extremely successful and still not aged. Why don't they want to give it more? I'm still way too upset to talk about it reasonably, I guess.

Edited April 16, 2013 by sisterof