Imperial VS Stormcloak

[ufw7]

I just studied the lore of tamriel on the site of uespwiki and read this whole topic and my opinion is that the stormcloaks and the legion are equal. It doesn't matter who wins the civil war because the thalmor don't want the civil war to end (my opinion).

 

Eh, there is a big different who wins. If the Imperial win fast, they can rebuild and fight the Thalmor.

If the Stormcloak wins fast, Skyrim can keep it defenses. Generally, Hammerfell and Cyrodiil is screwed.

If none wins: The Thalmor can first take out Skyrim with no casualties, then work their way over.

 

Generally, the different is who will rule Skyrim afterwards.

Look how Ulfric lead: Kill anybody who does not agree with you.

Look how the empire lead: Look at how it is in Oblivion. A lot better, no?

 

Though I doubt I can add any more information than is allready given in depth.

 

I think there isn't much to be rebuild because they owne not much anymore. And Hammerfell won of the thalmor in 4E 180

I think it we shouldn't be talking about what will happen afterwards because that's up to bethesda what will happen. We should only focus on the situation in skyrim and make our decions based on that.Your information is for a part based on your opinion mine on thhis site http://www.uesp.net/...Lore:Fourth_Era

[Sanzo84]

The thing is, in my opinion, the Imperials and Stormcloaks appeal to players for different reasons. I started playing the Elder Scrolls with Morrowind, joined up with the Legion then so it had a soft spot in my nostalgic mind. Of course, even then, you didn't have to play as a "loyal citizen of the Empire", but I don't recall any overtly anti-Imperial factions then (need to check this on UESP, it's been a while).

 

Some favor the guardians of the old order who represent a continuation of the long gone Septim Dynasty (and older Elder Scrolls games to an extent) and join with the Imperial Legion or at least roleplay a pro-Imperial character.

 

Others might find the Stormcloak story to be more appealing, the classic "rebels against the empire" scenario where an oppressed people rise up against foreign powers over them.

 

This might be biased, but there might be proof that even Bethesda is more Imperially inclined. If this has been discussed before, I apologize, but I'd like to point out what I've seen and what I think.

 

First off, Windhelm and the Stormcloaks are xenophobic. See what happens when you first visit Windhelm. Ask the cart driver and he'll tell you how poorly non-humans are treated. Inside, you'll see native Windhelm Nords threatening a Dunmer woman. And even if you decide to join the Stormcloaks, if you're playing a non-Nord, you'll be asked why you want to fight for Skyrim instead of being given a pat on the back.

 

This all goes against what the old Septim Dynasty and indeed the current Empire which is cosmopolitan and an equal opportunity employer, I haven't found any orc or beast race legionnaires, but if I recall correctly, there's an Altmer(!) legionnaire commander at one of the Imperial camps south of the Throat of the World (unless this is randomly generated). If you talk to him, he'll even explain that not all elves are pro-Thalmor. Meanwhile, I've yet to see a non-Nord stormcloak.

 

My final point is that Ulfric was clearly labeled as an "asset" by the Thalmor if you steal a dossier on him in the Thalmor embassy. An asset which has aided the Thalmor cause to disrupt order and Imperial rule in Skyrim. With such obvious clues, it wouldn't be surprising in the next Elder Scrolls game that an Imperial victory would be canon. Hopefully in the next game, we get to see Imperial vs Thalmor battles!

[Matth85]

I think it we shouldn't be talking about what will happen afterwards because that's up to bethesda what will happen

I think you've missed the point of the latest part of this topic: We do not talk game, we talk theoretical and lore. We really don't care what Bethesda will do, as it is irrelevant.

 

.Your information is for a part based on your opinion

Eh, what? None of my replies got anything to do with opinon. It builds on lore fact and generally how things work. Have you read the in-game books, as is even quoted in this topic, about how Ulfric leads? You can sum him up to "You are either with me, or against me". Is that any good leadership you think?

Otherwise you got the empire: Sure, they are not perfect. But heck, at least they are better.

 

And Hammerfell won of the thalmor in 4E 180

Did you read why they won? Because a good bunch of cyrodiils veteran where behind and helped. Without the help they would be about done for.

 

 

This topic is about who is better and worse. We've had some pretty damn good posts on how both the empire works and how the Stormcloak works. We all know what the Thalmor wants, and we really do not need to discuss that.

 

Really, I suggest you read the whole topic, instead of a wiki page.

[ufw7]

I think it we shouldn't be talking about what will happen afterwards because that's up to bethesda what will happen

I think you've missed the point of the latest part of this topic: We do not talk game, we talk theoretical and lore. We really don't care what Bethesda will do, as it is irrelevant.

 

.Your information is for a part based on your opinion

Eh, what? None of my replies got anything to do with opinon. It builds on lore fact and generally how things work. Have you read the in-game books, as is even quoted in this topic, about how Ulfric leads? You can sum him up to "You are either with me, or against me". Is that any good leadership you think?

Otherwise you got the empire: Sure, they are not perfect. But heck, at least they are better.

 

And Hammerfell won of the thalmor in 4E 180

Did you read why they won? Because a good bunch of cyrodiils veteran where behind and helped. Without the help they would be about done for.

 

 

This topic is about who is better and worse. We've had some pretty damn good posts on how both the empire works and how the Stormcloak works. We all know what the Thalmor wants, and we really do not need to discuss that.

 

Really, I suggest you read the whole topic, instead of a wiki page.

 

 

about hammerfell: 4E 175 — Hammerfell leaves the Empire after rejecting the White-Gold Concordat.

• Titus II renounces Hammerfell as a province of the Empire to preserve the treaty after the Redguards oppose ceding their lands. The Redguards see this as a betrayal, and a lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire is sown to the delight of the Thalmor. Hammerfell continues to war with the Aldmeri Dominion for the next five years.

4E 180 — The Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai is signed

• Having been fought to a standstill by the Redguards, the Aldmeri Dominion completely withdraws from Hammerfell

And maybe you should read this topic better. It was about someone who couldn't decide wich side he would chose.

Also i'm following this topic from the beginning (as I already said) And that wikipage is based from in-game books.

And what ulfric says "You are either with me, or against me" is true, you are with the empire or the stormcloaks. Also where or not talking about who's the best leader.

Edited December 19, 2011 by ufw7

[Matth85]

Also where or not talking about who's the best leader.

There is a very logical line between good leaders and which side to choose. In casre you didn't know.

If you honestly have seen the whole topic you know that we've been through everything up and down. We've gone from the "Choose X because Y is better!" to going in depth in strategy, why and who.

 

We all know the facts, and dragging in "Bethesda decides" or "Who cares? the Thalmor simply wants it to drag it out" is really not helping any sides of the discussion. We know both, and we went into why we believe X is better than Y. As of now, I find the Empire ten times better than the Stormcloak. Mostly because Ulfric is an sadistic idiot, whilst the empire is ... well, less sadistic. That is VERY much related to the question at hand.

 

I might need to point out I have posted throughout the whole topic, so I am well aware of what's been said and why. At least consider I've had a comment to about every point. Of course, you can't beat the latest replies, which goes far beyond me in term of knowledge, but I find it amusing -- we actualy got intelligent people on the internet!

[ufw7]

Also where or not talking about who's the best leader.

There is a very logical line between good leaders and which side to choose. In casre you didn't know.

If you honestly have seen the whole topic you know that we've been through everything up and down. We've gone from the "Choose X because Y is better!" to going in depth in strategy, why and who.

 

We all know the facts, and dragging in "Bethesda decides" or "Who cares? the Thalmor simply wants it to drag it out" is really not helping any sides of the discussion. We know both, and we went into why we believe X is better than Y. As of now, I find the Empire ten times better than the Stormcloak. Mostly because Ulfric is an sadistic idiot, whilst the empire is ... well, less sadistic. That is VERY much related to the question at hand.

 

I might need to point out I have posted throughout the whole topic, so I am well aware of what's been said and why. At least consider I've had a comment to about every point. Of course, you can't beat the latest replies, which goes far beyond me in term of knowledge, but I find it amusing -- we actualy got intelligent people on the internet!

 

I agree with the first part.

But I don't agree with the second. Your opinion isn't VERY much related to it. We don't have to now that you find the empire better ( I find it to btw). What realy matters is why (not an argument like "Ulfric is an sadistic idiot")

Its not because you replied on everthing that makes you know more than me. and your last sentence just proves that your're one of those 'intelligent' people. (And as i said (2 times already)I read the whole topic).

Edited December 20, 2011 by ufw7

[ufw7]

Also where or not talking about who's the best leader.

There is a very logical line between good leaders and which side to choose. In casre you didn't know.

If you honestly have seen the whole topic you know that we've been through everything up and down. We've gone from the "Choose X because Y is better!" to going in depth in strategy, why and who.

 

We all know the facts, and dragging in "Bethesda decides" or "Who cares? the Thalmor simply wants it to drag it out" is really not helping any sides of the discussion. We know both, and we went into why we believe X is better than Y. As of now, I find the Empire ten times better than the Stormcloak. Mostly because Ulfric is an sadistic idiot, whilst the empire is ... well, less sadistic. That is VERY much related to the question at hand.

 

I might need to point out I have posted throughout the whole topic, so I am well aware of what's been said and why. At least consider I've had a comment to about every point. Of course, you can't beat the latest replies, which goes far beyond me in term of knowledge, but I find it amusing -- we actualy got intelligent people on the internet!

 

I mostly agree with the first part.

But I don't agree with the second. Your opinion isn't VERY much related to it. We don't have to now that you find the empire better ( I find it to btw). What realy matters is why (not an argument like "Ulfric is an sadistic idiot")

But its not because you replied on everthing that makes you know more than me. and your last sentence just proves that your're one of those 'intelligent' people. (And as i said (2 times already)I read the whole topic).

Edited December 20, 2011 by ufw7

[Lachdonin]

As far as the Hammerfell grinding the Thalmor to a stalemate, resulting in the second treaty of Stros'Maki, there are some asumptions you have to make.

 

First, we're told that the Redguard were losing. And hard.

 

Then the Legion, under the command of the Emperor Mede II slaughtered the Domminion in the battle of the Imperial City.

 

The total destruction of their forces in Cyrodiil would have caused the Domminion to redirect forces from Hammerfell to protect the border between Elswyr and Cyrodiil. Thats just common sense.

 

This would have lessened pressure from the Redguard, allowind htem to regain their footing.

 

When the White Gold Concordant was signed, and the Redguard succeeded/Were kicked out of the Empire, the Dominion renewed the offencive. They could not, however, have redirected the garrisons from Elswyr, or risk the border with Cyrodiil.

 

As such, the STALEMANTE which was fought with the Redguard (Hammerfell did not win, it was at best a tie), and it was almost exclusively due to the victory over the Domminion forces in Cyrodiil.

 

But thats largely beside the point.

 

a lot of the Stormcloak/Legion debate revolves, for me at least, around the leaders.

 

Tullius is an assigned military officer. He is NOT in charge of the Province, and in matters of governance appears to bow to the High King (Queen, in this case).

 

Ulfric wants to rule. As such, he is more 'in power' than Tullius.

 

I sympathise with the Stormcloaks. And i respect them for standing up for their beleifs, even if the end result would, in my mind be worse than a minor problem now. I cannot, however, morally justify anything Ulfric does, or has done. And i firmly beleive that, because of the shift in the power of governance Ulfric's victory would bring, the Stormcloaks are clearly the least desireable choice.

[Matth85]

But its not because you replied on everthing that makes you know more than me.

Frankly, I do not care what I or you know. We deal in fact, and I replied to your first comment in this topic. It is not relevant what you think of me.

 

Your opinion isn't VERY much related to it

It is my opinion that the empire is best.

It is fact that Ulfric is not tinking about Tamriel, only Skyrim.

There is a big different between them, and both is on the table.

 

What realy matters is why

I believe we got plenty of amazing posts why in the last 3 pages. I don't think we need any more than that.

 

Its not because you replied on everthing that makes you know more than me. and your last sentence just proves that your're one of those 'intelligent' people. (And as i said (2 times already)I read the whole topic).

I don't know more than anybody. However, saying I need to "read the whole topic" is my point. I've replied to half of, why would I need to read it?

Secondly, there was no irony in the intelligent people comment, just so you are aware. I never said I was, I simply said the last few post are exeptionally good.

 

I struggle to understand your point. You seem to bring no argument to the discussion at hand, just banging on me, as of now. Your only argument was "Who cares?". Eh ....

 

But do what you wish. I see no reason in arguing nothing with you. If some interesting points toward the Imperials or the Stormcloak comes up, I will be more interested in being here. Otherwise it is cluttering the topic.

 

Cheers,

Matth

[AtlasS]

I've made it this far, just reading all the posts and have had a good laugh at some of the arguements for and against each side. personally I think that if there is a expansion, one of the first things bethesda should do is a "post civil war- battle" where, once you complete the legion/stormcloak quests, the dominion see's its chance and floods in.

 

And even if they dont do this as an expansion, someone has to do it as a mod