Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Matth85]

And even if they dont do this as an expansion, someone has to do it as a mod

They've really built up for a DLC or an expansion with this! Considering we are left with nothing but theories.

At least I believe they will make something related to the Thalmor and the political problems in Skyrim.

[colorsprayh]

The stormcloaks goal might be noble, but damn it is short sighted.

If they split from the empire, they've basically screwed Skyrim.

 

Point 1) The Thalmor ( spelled right?) Is playing dive and conquer, and doing it well. The empire is recovering from their loss, but know they need to hit back soon enough. The Stormcloak is idiots that don't see this. Remove the mpire, and you remove the continent between the 3-country alliance of the empire. Thus 3 countries will be split into 1 in 3 different spots. Now the Thalmor can rush in and take each one.

 

Point 2) They play Divide and Conquer. Theyr main brick in this play is Ulfric and the stormcloak.

 

I actually like the thalmor. A perfect plan, a perfect military. Let the weak kill themself, as they tend to do. Too bad I can't join them >.<

The only thing ruining their carefully balanced plan for Skyrim, is you. You tip the balance towards one side.

 

I sit with the Thalmor, then the empire. The stormcloaks are shortsighted and racistic.

 

I don't agree with your first point, If you side with Ulfric and win, he'll give a speech, in his speech, it's very clear that he knows that thalmor is biggest enemy, and they don't hate the empire. And if you do the main quest before the civil war end. You'll lead a negotiation in high brothgar between the two side. You can see that Ulfric is willing to talk to the the General but he don't even want to see the Thalmor ambassador.

 

But I completely agree with your 2nd point, elves are long live creatures, they can wait and play long line. What they want to see is that the civil war continues forever, (so does Alduin) So no matter which side you choose, you're actually help skyrim

[Matth85]

I don't agree with your first point, If you side with Ulfric and win, he'll give a speech, in his speech, it's very clear that he knows that thalmor is biggest enemy, and they don't hate the empire. And if you do the main quest before the civil war end. You'll lead a negotiation in high brothgar between the two side. You can see that Ulfric is willing to talk to the the General but he don't even want to see the Thalmor ambassador.

 

His hate for the Thalmor is not because of the treath they pose to Skyrim, and Tamriel, but because he got tortured by them. The man hates the Thalmor more than anybody. Sure, the goal of wiping them out is good, but his motive is wrong. Being vengefull is really not helping when the strategy is "Me smash! Me kill!".

 

How I see it:

Ulfric is blinded by hate of... everything. Which is bad for tactical reasons.

 

The Empire wants to restore their old self. Perhaps a little selfish, but they try. The Empire doesn't want the civil war, they simply want time to get a chance to fight against the Thalmor.

 

Then there is the Thalmor. They want to watch the world burn. These guys got a perfect military plan, and got the time to wait. Nobody, par the Aldmeri Dominion and their allies, gains from them winning. At least nobody in Skyrim or the Empire gains on it.

 

I might understand the loyality of the Stormcloak. Heck, the goal is very honorable and good! However, they forget the long-term problems and forget that Skyrim is not the same place as it used to be. I doubt most of the people would like the Jarls fighting for power again and small wars being a normal thing.

[LobselVith66]

 

His hate for the Thalmor is not because of the treath they pose to Skyrim, and Tamriel, but because he got tortured by them. The man hates the Thalmor more than anybody. Sure, the goal of wiping them out is good, but his motive is wrong. Being vengefull is really not helping when the strategy is "Me smash! Me kill!".

 

Is that your assumption about Ulfric's reason for wanting to restore Talos worship, defeat the Thalmor, and have Skyrim become independent of the Empire? I think there are other factors involved aside from his torture. When he reclaimed Markarth on behalf of the Empire, he did so because the Empire offered him religious freedom for the city. Clearly, it's an important issue for him.

 

 

How I see it:

Ulfric is blinded by hate of... everything. Which is bad for tactical reasons.

 

The Empire wants to restore their old self. Perhaps a little selfish, but they try. The Empire doesn't want the civil war, they simply want time to get a chance to fight against the Thalmor.

 

Ulfric doesn't like the Thalmor. Never does General Tullius. The difference is, Ulfric can do something about it, while the Empire is capitulating to the Thalmor.

 

 

Then there is the Thalmor. They want to watch the world burn. These guys got a perfect military plan, and got the time to wait. Nobody, par the Aldmeri Dominion and their allies, gains from them winning. At least nobody in Skyrim or the Empire gains on it.

 

I agree with that - the Thalmor are dangerous.

 

 

I might understand the loyality of the Stormcloak. Heck, the goal is very honorable and good! However, they forget the long-term problems and forget that Skyrim is not the same place as it used to be. I doubt most of the people would like the Jarls fighting for power again and small wars being a normal thing.

 

The Thalmor doesn't seem to think the Stormcloaks winning is in their best interest any more than the Empire winning the civil war. If the Stormcloaks win the civil war, then the new Jarls are loyal to Ulfric, and Elsif swears fealty to Ulfric. Ulfric seems to be the clear contender to become the new High King.

[Matth85]

Ulfric doesn't like the Thalmor. Never does General Tullius. The difference is, Ulfric can do something about it, while the Empire is capitulating to the Thalmor.

I can also rush into my neightbour country with a few nukes and see if I can take over.

I would not be able to, though.

 

Give me 1 good reason to attack when you are weak, instead of when you are strong?

 

The Thalmor doesn't seem to think the Stormcloaks winning is in their best interest any more than the Empire winning the civil war. If the Stormcloaks win the civil war, then the new Jarls are loyal to Ulfric, and Elsif swears fealty to Ulfric. Ulfric seems to be the clear contender to become the new High King

Ulfric wants the old ways back. You know, when Jarls fought each other for more land. That is really not a good strategy when you are in the face of the Thalmor.

[LobselVith66]

 

I can also rush into my neightbour country with a few nukes and see if I can take over.

I would not be able to, though.

 

Ulfric is able to win the civil war with the assistance of the Dragonborn, and the Thalmor can be driven from Skyrim instead of appeased at every turn. Hammerfell was able to drive the Thalmor from their nation. I can see why people would want to leave the Empire if its too weak to handle the Thalmor effectively.

 

 

Give me 1 good reason to attack when you are weak, instead of when you are strong?

 

Perhaps the Empire will never be strong again.

 

 

Ulfric wants the old ways back. You know, when Jarls fought each other for more land. That is really not a good strategy when you are in the face of the Thalmor.

 

Which Jarls are fighting for more land if the Dragonborn supports Ulfric? I don't see it. What I see is a return to Talos worship being legal and the desire to drive the Thalmor from Skyrim.

[Matth85]

Ulfric is able to win the civil war with the assistance of the Dragonborn

So is the Imperials.

 

and the Thalmor can be driven from Skyrim instead of appeased at every turn

Tactics my friend. Why attack and get killed, when you can either take them from the inside, or get the energy to assault?

 

Hammerfell was able to drive the Thalmor from their nation

Hammerfell had Imperial soldier with them, digsused as injured soldier.

Besides, the Thalmor also tried to get Cyrodiil at the same time. Now they only need to focus on Skyrim.

 

Perhaps the Empire will never be strong again.

And the Stormcloak will? As of now, it is the Stormcloaks fault the Empire can't build up. They waste precious time on a rebeliion, instead of training, learning and building another army.

 

Which Jarls are fighting for more land if the Dragonborn supports Ulfric?

Ulfric does not "support" you. He uses you. You are not getting the High King seat, he is. Then the old ways start, as he wants, where the strongest get what he deserves. Problem is: They do not got the time for that.

 

What I see is a return to Talos worship being legal and the desire to drive the Thalmor from Skyrim.

But you don't see the invasion coming a month afterwards? Before Skyrim is ready?

[Lachdonin]

 

Perhaps the Empire will never be strong again.

 

The Stormcloaks do not have the full support of Skyrim. Fact.

Skyrim is part of the Empire. Fact.

The Empire can draw military resources from (at least) 2 additional provinces. Fact.

3>1. Fact.

Its a mathmatic fact that the Empire, even weakened as it is, is stronger than the Stormcloaks.

 

As for this Talos thing, i'm thinking, more and more, that its to drive the story away from Talos (Whose domans largely included unity and peace, despite being a general) and more towards schism and, more importantly, Racism. In other words, back towards Lorkhan(Shor).

 

Ulfric, for all his Talos bluster, screamse Shezzarine to me. He's racist, violent, and has a near pathilogic hatred of Mer. The Stormcloaks are caught up in it themselves. The only hint of a Mer you see in their lines if is the Dragonborn sides with them, and story wise he may as well be a Sload, cause no one seems to notice anyway.

 

I'm not saying that the Domminion, being Elves, are good, but the Empire preaches a type of harmony between the races which i for one would die fighting for. As such, i'd rather die for an Imperial World than live for a Stormcloak.

[Aethgar]

I couldn't make myself join either side on my first few characters. I made a Nord solely to have a reason to try out the Stormcloaks, and I actually liked them. Why? Because even though Tullius is right that the Empire aren't the bad guys.. they failed to hold the Thalmor in check. Those fascist bastiches are the actual monsters, and the Aldmeri Dominion's hatred for a man who became a god, and was also the founder of the Empire.. bleah. Sorry, but I refused to support an empire that denied ITS OWN FOUNDER.

 

It's time a new empire was born in Skyrim, and a new Nord conquered a weak and divided continent. Ulfric seems intent on being that, and I found his rant to his much more rabid 2IC was enough to merit my wanting to join on the Nord anyway. His reluctance to fight, but his determination to fight in order that all the dead men and women he fought with against the Aldmeri hadn't died in vain.. was fairly noble.

The fact that the claims of him 'murdering' the High King when he fought him in a traditional combat, using a weapon ANY DEDICATED NORD CAN USE.. those claims aren't valid. He did it by the book. And he didn't 'shout him to death'. he used 'Disarm'. That was also the only Thu'um I watched him use at all during the final battle, which tends to support his claim there.

And it suggests that the High King was a less of a traditional Nord not to have been able to Shout back.

 

I don't ultimately like either, but Ulfric seems to be a genuinely honourable guy. He's not power hungry when he says quietly that he'd retire from the world if men could rule by words and peace. He constantly has to be egged on by his general, and demands a Moot acclaim him High King - he doesn't just take it. I think he's wrong to do what he's done, but after playing it through, I definitely see his point. I DO wish the game let you somehow keep the honourable Jarls, like Idgrod Ravencrone.

 

I have yet to play any character that doesn't want to kill every damn Thalmor I see. Having to tolerate those poncy scumbags is a primary reason I.. just can't join the Empire. When the one in Markath tries to make you play spy on an honourable old Bard? Yeah no. Not gonna.

 

I just hope we get an expac where we can break the power of the Thalmor. >=)

 

Also, the fact that the Thalmor ambassador Elenwen is THE SAME TORTURER WHO HELD AND TORTURED ULFRIC... man, I so wanna kill her. Makes him refusing to talk if she's in the room at High hrothgar that much more intence once you read that in the dossier...

Edited December 21, 2011 by Aethgar

[gundog48]

Originally I went to Solitude to join the Imperials, went in, then realised General Tullius was a moron so decided not to. Then as I explored more I found the Empire to be very EU-esque (ie. centralise power and take it away from the people while destroying freedom and taking away things the Nords were proud of). Then I found out about the Thalmor and instantly joined up with the Stormcloaks.

 

The Empire were threatened by the Thalmor, so allowed their oppressive views to hold sway across the Empire, taking Skyrim down with it. The thing is, Skyrim would probably be able to hold it's own against the Thalmor thanks to it's natural defenses, so it did not need to appease the Thalmor, but due to the centralised power, the Empire applied it's rules to Skyrim. Sure Ulfric is a bit racist, but I'd rather someone like him rather than the spineless leaders of the Empire who are influenced by the far more racist Thalmor. I do sidequests that help other races to clear my conscience but frankly I have no room for the Argonians, whenever I try to help them they just moan about how badly they are being treated and how they don't like Nords!

Edited December 22, 2011 by gundog48