Kayyyleb Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 If you're so willing to admit your flaws then admit them.Cons -General Tullius while not openly racist like Ulfric has very little respect for Nord culture (though he claims this changes after the Civil War).-Imperials are just as high and mighty as the Stormcloaks. Perhaps more so.-There is a definite Imperial way or the highway attitude.-Any long-standing government is going to have deep-rooted corruption. The Empire is no exception.-I'm an ass who debates a lot.-I'm also an atheist, so people whining about not being able to worship a god really doesn't earn any pity points from me, which is probably a huge reason why I care little for the supposed plight of the Stormcloaks since that's really the only point they have to gain support from the common people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) Thank you. Funny I used to be atheist too. Not anymore though, thus used to be. The Stormcloaks are more so the common people really. An independent Skyrim means a fresh government which means less corruption. At first. Eventually Skyrim will succumb to corruption but the Nords (Nords meaning the people) tend to have more gain from the corruption that plagues Skyrim's government. Splitting into several independent provinces (provinces that are against the AD) means a several front war they will have to fight if they want to control all of Tamriel. In the end a new Empire will probably arise but first we need to kill the current one. Edited February 19, 2013 by Stormcloak117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) @Kayyyleb Ok, well then you're not too different then we are in a sense... 1) Atheism is a Religion in and of itself. For example, Atheism is a personal decision to NOT accept or believe in a "God" or "Gods". They could have decided to ban Atheism. No different. 2) We don't want your pity. We want you to leave us to live our lives without having to answer to the onerous Empire or Thalmor Dominion. Your opinion is not required on whether or *not* we choose to worship whoever. The thing is, if they can take away (1) right, then they can take them all away. We see what's coming and who knows what new treaty or under table deal Thalmor will make with the Empire next, again without representation. What this has proven is the Empire can be manipulated. TMII opened the door to make this possible. And, as usual, because we want to be left alone and want the "oppressors" out of our lives, then now we're the bad guys. But, it's ok for TMII to make these decision for people without their consent. Much like what is going on now with the US Gov, but this ain't the place for it. Just saying. We want our freedom and we want to live peace and live as our ancestor's lived in honor and glory. We've fought your battles, we've paid and paid and paid for things that do not and will never benefit us and we're just, just sick of the Imperial system. Btw, we're also sick of being left to die, alone in cages and having our heads removed for speaking out against the insanity. Yes we're a little biased but so what? Dark Elves are, we know that. Khajit are as well against Woodelves. The Thalmor, OMG they wrote the damn book on being biased and how to treat those beneath you with the utmost contempt. It's normal, it's natural and it's a part of the healing process. You have to let the Nords express their frustrations with what primarily the Elves and now the Empire have done to us. Have to let it out and come to terms with it before things will improve. You know, if you kept getting stung by bees for no reason, you might be biased against bees. Least until you get to understand them better. Nord culture is under attack right now in sooo many different ways, all we're doing is fighting one enemy after another, with no one willing to sit down around a kitchen table and here us out. So... hate and hope is all we really have left. And you know, in the end all (9) Divines have their totems in the temple. I think that really says alot about the Stormcloaks cause. Think about it. Another thing, we don't want or expect everyone to join us. Either you're a true son of Skyrim or you're not. You have to "feel it" in your bones. Our actions do the talking because the Empire talks all the time nowadays, and it's just talk. Edited February 19, 2013 by StormHammer81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Thank you. Funny I used to be atheist too. Not anymore though, thus used to be. The Stormcloaks are more so the common people really. An independent Skyrim means a fresh government which means less corruption. At first. Eventually Skyrim will eventually succumb to corruption but the Nords (Nords meaning the people) tend to have more gain from the corruption that plagues Skyrim's government. Splitting into several independent provinces (provinces that are against the AD) means a several front war they will have to fight if they want to control all of Tamriel. In the end a new Empire will probably arise but first we need to kill the current one. At the really basic level, most of the common people (just your normal NPCs) don't give a s#*! who wins the war. The Stormcloaks don't represent them any more than the Imperials. The Imperials generally represent any non-Nord far better than the Stormcloaks though and non-Nords are still a significant portion of the population. Now I'm not sure how you figure Skyrim's corruption helps the Nords more than Cyrodiil's. If anything, the closer to home the corruption is the worse it's felt. If you live in the US then Canada's corruption is pretty much irrelevant to you but the US's corruption can affect your life. Corruption virtually never helps the common man in any way. It only helps the corrupt, the wealthy, and the elite usually at the expense of the common man. The Black-Briars and Silver-Bloods of the world are in it for themselves, not the average Joe. Splitting into independent provinces will change little to nothing about the war's geography. Skyrim can hide behind Cyrodill and be non-interventionists if they want but the war will still be fought on the borders of Hammerfell and Cyrodiil regardless of the Civil War's outcome. However, the Thalmor are convinced they have something to gain from the Civil War because they influenced Ulfric into starting the rebellion in the first place which ought to raise an eyebrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) <p>They made Ulfric pissed about what the Empire was doing not just said "Hey go fight the Empire and we will blow you."</p><p> </p><p>Skyrim wont hide, they state that in the end of the war.</p><p> </p><p>And I was giving examples of Skyrim's past of corruption which isnt much but when its there it doesnt seem to screw anyone over but the enemy because it seems its more lies in warfare than anywhere else. </p><p> </p><p>Those families are corrupt, thats totally true. </p><p> </p><p>Like I said, the Thalmor mainly gave the Empire those terms because they knew it would piss off the people. Which worked and it doesnt mean it isnt wrong just because it's what they want. The empire wronged its people, (Ulfric is a perfect example of how much they have screwed people), and now it must pay, then the elves will pay.</p><p> </p><p>"A great darkness is growing, and soon we will be called to fight it, on these shores or abroad. The Aldmeri Dominion may have defeated the Empire but it has not defeated Skyrim!" - Ulfric Stormcloak</p><p> </p><p>Also when I was atheist I understood why people fought for their religion. Or at least the right to have it. I would have fought for the right to be atheist. It's not about the particular god but more so about the right to be allowed to believe in said god. </p> Edited February 19, 2013 by Stormcloak117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 @Kayyyleb Ok, well then you're not too different then we are in a sense... 1) Atheism is a Religion in and of itself. For example, Atheism is a personal decision to NOT accept or believe in a "God" or "Gods". They could have decided to ban Atheism. No different. 2) We don't want your pity. We want you to leave us to live our lives without having to answer to the onerous Empire or Thalmor Dominion. Your opinion is not required on whether or *not* we choose to worship whoever. The thing is, if they can take away (1) right, then they can take them all away. We see what's coming and who knows what new treaty or under table deal Thalmor will make with the Empire next. What this has proven is the Empire can be manipulated. TMII opened the door to make this possible. And, as usual, because we want to be left alone and want the "oppressors" out of our lives, then we're the bad guys. But, it's ok for TMII to make these decision for people without their consent. Much like is going in the US Gov right now, but this ain't the place for it. Just saying. We want our freedom and we want to live peace and live as our ancestor's lived in honor and glory. We've fought your battles, we've paid and paid and paid for things that do not and will never benefit us and we're just, just sick of the Imperial system. Yes we're a little biased but so what? Dark Elves are, we know that. Khajit are as well against Woodelves. The Thalmor, OMG they wrote the damn book on being biased and how to treat those beneath you with the utmost contempt. It's normal, it's natural and it's a part of the healing process. You have to let the Nords express their frustrations with what primarily the Elves have done to us. Have to let it out and come to terms with it before things will improve. You know, if you kept getting stung by bees for no reason, you might be biased against bees. Least until you get to understand them better. Nord culture is under attack right now in sooo many different ways, all we're doing if fighting. We can't resolve anything because the GD Thalmor will not get off our a$$ because of the what TMII did. So... hate and hope is all we really have left. And you know, in the end all (9) Divines have their totems in the temple. I think that really says alot about the Stormcloaks cause. Think about it.1) I really don't want to turn this into a debate about atheism. But atheism isn't a religion any more than "off" is a TV channel. Not having a religion...is not a religion. Just clearing that up. My atheism is based on the simple fact that no convincing evidence for a god has ever been presented to me. The Thalmor can go ahead and ban atheism, I'll just sleep on a temple pew once a week if it means so much to them. 2) This is the selfish, non-interventionist Stormcloak argument. The US didn't have to intervene in WWII, they could've just sat on their side of the ocean and left Europe to whatever fate it ended up with. Would history determine that to be the right decision? Probably not. If the Thalmor want to demand more of the Empire they'll have to win another war first. But if they win another war there won't be an Empire left to negotiate with anyways. You can spare me the "honor and glory" crap. It's a video game dude, you start talking like that and I'm not gonna take you seriously. You can have 8 idols, 9 idols or 100 idols in your temple at the end of the war, it means nothing to me and even less if the Thalmor eventually take over Skyrim later because they screwed up now. Once again, just because someone else does something doesn't make it ok for you to do it. Just because the Thalmor are racist or the Argonians are racist or whatever doesn't make it ok for the Nords to be racist. How about instead of settling for being just as bad as everyone else you try and actually be better? There's a novel idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) @Kayyyleb Yes, you're correct. And that Dossier on Ulfric does not look good. There's a ton of info which can be deduced from just those 2 or 3 paragraphs which have been summarized. He's also not doing a very good job as Jarl and he's obstructing the Gov by not allowing the Moot to meet. So, Ulfric is guilty of some wrongs too. The thing is... Titus Mede II has IMO done worse than Ulfric. True though, TMII was vindicated in the end after his retreat from IC and indeed, he may be vindicated again. Still, you have a ton or horrible atrocities and really foul sh*t going on because of the Empire. It could be that one day the WGC is no more and the Empire will once again be under sound leadership, but I doubt it. And it wouldn't take me all of 5 secs to start fighting back the very moment any Thalmor came for me or one of the members of my family. That would be their first and last mistake. This is why so many Nords and others want to just scrap the Imperial system and start over because we are not in control OR we do not have a say in this Empire. Not like the good ol days with the Imperial Council. Although Tullius doesn't force the Legion on Whiterun, he accepts Jarl Baalgruf's demands. So, there is some good left in the Empire. But to sit here and say that Ulfric is the reason for everything going South and that the Stormcloaks are instigating all the problems in Skyrim is biased. If you fight for the Empire, then you have to accept resp for your failures, with said goal supposedly to make the Empire better. Nothing will change for the Empire as long WGC is upheld and as long as the Empire allows the Thalmor to ride them, they will ride the Empire for all it's worth. And if TMII will not listen to reason, then he can listen to Ulfric. Edited February 19, 2013 by StormHammer81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayyyleb Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) They maid Ulfric pissed about what the Empire was doing not just said "Hey go fight the Empire and we will blow you." Skyrim wont hide, they state that in the end of the war. And I was giving examples of Skyrim's past of corruption which isnt much but when its there it doesnt seem to screw anyone over but the enemy because it seems its more lies in warfare than anywhere else. Those families are corrupt, thats totally true. Like I said, the Thalmor mainly gave the Empire those terms because they knew it would piss off the people. Which worked and it doesnt mean it isnt wrong just because it's what they want. The empire wronged its people, (Ulfric is a perfect example of how much they have screwed people), and now it must pay, then the elves will pay. Also when I was atheist I understood why people fought for their religion. Or at least the right to have it. I would have fought for the right to be atheist. It's not about the particular god but more so about the right to be allowed to believe in said god. Obviously they aren't paying him under the table or something like that. They manipulated him in captivity to behave in a manner conducive to their plans. He doesn't have to know he's helping, probably better if he doesn't. But the end result is he started a rebellion and that's what the Thalmor wanted him to do. Yeah Skyrim won't hide, but Skyrim vs the AD is like a pitbull taking on a grizzly bear. They can be pissed off, they can be enraged but they're still gonna lose. At the start of the game the Empire had practically won the Civil War anyways. Ulfric was about to be executed and the rebellion's chances of victory would plummet with him gone. A Skyrim that can't beat one Imperial Legion isn't going to crush the AD. Simple as that. You're completely right that the peace terms were designed specifically to enrage Skyrim in particular (more Talos worshipers than anywhere else), this ties in to the AD deliberately engineering the rebellion in the first place. It's part of the AD's plan and the Stormcloaks are playing right into it. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I don't understand the importance of religious freedom, but is there really such a thing even under the 9 divines? A state religion with 8 gods or 9 is still a state religion. You certainly don't have religious freedom to be a daedra worshiper. Edit: you guys are right to hate TMII. I hate him too. But he really doesn't factor into the future because the DB kills him off remember? Edited February 19, 2013 by Kayyyleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer81 Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) @Kayyyleb Let it be noted that for the record, I tried to meet this guy half-way. OK. Your S*TTY LITTLE ATTITUDE is reason enough for anyone to rebel. ATHE-ISM. It's an ISM. Therefore, it's a IDEA, a state of mind. Ideas can be banned, you are NOT special in this regard. This is not exactly like WWII. For one thing, the ALLIES were not allowing Hitler to extend his policies into their countries. Britain DID NOT allow Htiler to go throughout their nation gathering up Jews for the bon-fire(s). WE FIGHT FOR HONOR AND GLORY. HONOR AND GLORY. GLORY AND HONOR. You fight out of FEAR and GREED. And I don't give two sh*ts what somoene like you thinks about me hahahaha. You have nothing on me little man. Least I'm not the one trying to make excuses for putting innocent people in shackles. And another thing, it's a video game, ok so then stop posting if it ain't worth talking about. Unless we have a point somewhere that you can't comprehend / rebuttle. EVERYONE IS BIASED in some way, just like you're biased against Religion and people who don't agree with you. It's a part of who you are. And I don't see anything wrong with it. No one should be FORCING ANYONE ELSE into thinking or liking anything. And your petulant attitude is one thing which turned me on Atheists a long time ago... among other types of people... and yet, even so I try to be understanding and TOLERANT. Edited February 19, 2013 by StormHammer81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighkingUlfricStormcloak Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) <p>@ Kayyyleb, you need to understand and respect people for what they believe in not just say "Whatever not my problem because I'm a selfish as$whole." If you don't care than leave. You need to understand that we are looking at this as if we were with the game. I actually believe in Honor and Glory. I am honorable, I fight for glory. </p><p> </p><p>The Imperials are just as bad as anyone else. </p><p> </p><p>We dont excuse the racism. If I could change it I would. (I killed all the Dark Elves who didnt contribute in Windhelm and spared the ones who do) But first we must see change in the people we are being racist towards.</p><p> </p><p>If you claim to not give a s#*! than f*cking leave.</p><p> </p><p>The AD is strong yes. But every one Nord will kill countless elves. They have heroes that say they killed huge amounts of elves. The Nords devastated the AD's army in Cyrodiil. Completely, and on the account of TMII's death, there goes the whole Empire's leadership. The Legion cant act on its own and like I have said 100 times the Empire is now in a power struggle.</p><p> </p><p>Atheism is okay, but 90% of the time the atheists are little sh*t heads who dont give 2 f*cks about anyone else. </p>I dont know if anyone else is seeing it but I'm not sure what is happening with the <p>'s and crap Edited February 19, 2013 by Stormcloak117 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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