Imperial VS Stormcloak

[StormHammer81]

 

Sajuukhar9000, Skyrim is not dependent on Cyrodiil for food. Theres no proof of this anywhere - therefore completely wrong. Thats a bias, a warrant without backing is a bias. Skyrim produces it's own food and other than in Solitude (Maybe) theres no mention of food shortages anywhere. So recalculate.

 

No. What did Sebil tell you? She's served Skyrim for many years and it's people like her who understand how to manage Skyrim.

 

Besides, you don't honestly expect a rugged-mountainous country, with half it's landmass covered with snow and ice to be able to grow a substantial amount of food do you?

 

 

On the supposed build up of armies on Cyrodiil's border, well theres one reference to that and its from Tullius, Im not saying its not true but Im saying theres no hard evidence. Why deosnt the Empire use its apparent legions to help resolve the civil unrest within its own country? Cicero's journal states Cyrodiil's current state and many NPC's also say "I escaped the fighting in Cyrodiil just to have it follow me here." Which might indicate that things arent as peaceful as people like to think.

 

Great, so you're calling General Tullius a liar... so now whose being biased? The troubles in Cyrodil are a separate matter, one which we won't be able to deal with until Ulfric is brought to justice.

 

 

Ysmir is also the Nordic aspect of Talos and the Nords have come to know Ysmir as Talos. He is the god of war in the Nordic Pantheon. Also, it doesnt matter what race Talos was considering its not 100% known. Some sources say he's from Atmora (I dont really believe that, it would be cool though) and some say he's from Skyrim, some say he's from Alcaire. But Ysmir is a Nord. Thats a fact.

 

No. Ysmir is not Talos, no matter how much you wish for it to be true. They were two very different men who had distinct ideologies. Not to mention how strongly some of the Nords opposed Talos. Although, both were from Atmora originally and both were Nords. You Nords and your... ah f*ck it.

 

 

Talos used his Cyrodiilic armies to defeat the Nords at Sancre Tor, his army was ill equipped and untrained and Talos outsmarted the Nords and Bretons. Thats how he did business. Talos used superior tactics rather than pure muscle and numbers. Which many sources claim the "Pact of Nord Chieftains" trained him and taught him the art of warfare. So many things are unclear when it comes to him, but one thing is certain, no one is telling me that Im not allowed to worship him.

 

Right. No one is saying that *you* are not allowed to worship Talos. Although due to Ulfric's treason the Emperor has had to crack down.

Edited February 27, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Kayyyleb]

Where is the proof that Skyrim gets its food from Cyrodiil? Where? Also have you not noticed all the veins of ore for Steel and Iron and Silver? Well I think we both know Skyrim has many resources. If you deny this then you dont know Skyrim very well.

 

A Wasteland - an unused area of land that has become overgrown.

- A bleak, unattractive, and unused or neglected urban or industrial area: "industrial wasteland"; "a cultural wasteland".

 

Skyrim is no wasteland.

 

And Im aware steel is not a natural occurring mineral.

Skyrim is what...90% bleak, neglected land overrun by bandits, wild animals and much worse? About half of which being covered in snow all year? The vast majority of Skyrim is most definitely a wasteland with the only resource rich areas being the hold capitals with their businesses and farms and a few scattered mines, mills and small villages which all add up to barely a fraction of the overall province. Skyrim and Hammerfell match the definition of wasteland better than anywhere else in Tamriel.

 

You don't feed armies with iron and steel. So what is the advantage of having tons of weapons and armor for a starving army? The few scattered farms and hunters realistically can only provide a merely adequate amount for survival, so forget adding thousands more mouths to feed. Not to mention dragon attacks making it a very unappealing place for troop movements and field garrisoning, something commented on by both sides of the Civil War.

[StormHammer81]

 

You don't feed armies with iron and steel. So what is the advantage of having tons of weapons and armor for a starving army? The few scattered farms and hunters realistically can only provide a merely adequate amount for survival, so forget adding thousands more mouths to feed. Not to mention dragon attacks making it a very unappealing place for troop movements and field garrisoning, something commented on by both sides of the Civil War.

 

Cyrodil and Skyrim form a "symbiotic" relationship, in that what happens to one will undoubtedly affect the other.

 

Cyrodil has spacious farmland with gently rolling hills, while Skyrim's terrain is more rugged and loaded with minerals. On account of bias and his personal hatred for the Empire, Ulfric is neglecting the truth of the matter.

Edited February 27, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Kayyyleb]

 

 

You don't feed armies with iron and steel. So what is the advantage of having tons of weapons and armor for a starving army? The few scattered farms and hunters realistically can only provide a merely adequate amount for survival, so forget adding thousands more mouths to feed. Not to mention dragon attacks making it a very unappealing place for troop movements and field garrisoning, something commented on by both sides of the Civil War.

 

Cyrodil and Skyrim form a "symbiotic" realtionship, in that what happens to one will undoubtedly affect the other.

 

Cyrodil has plentious farmland with gently rolling hills, while Skyrim's terrain is more rugged and loaded with minerals.

Agreed. Which is another reason why they are better off together than separate.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Skyrim has shown it can grow a sustainable amount of food. Whiterun hold shows this, the Rift, Falkreath, Eastmarch, the Reach, Haafingar most of the holds show this is very possible and the cities of these holds are supported by these very farms. Those that I didnt mention (The Pale, Hjalmarch, Winterhold) have access to water and ports for trade. Each hold can easily support itself.

 

There is no proof that Skyrim supposedly relies on anyone else for food. So that argument is wrong.

 

I never called Tullius a liar, I may not love the man but he's honest (fairly anyway) and I stated that its only a quote from him not evidence to support the claim. Thats where I make my stand.

 

And this whole thing of the Empire having to crack down is the very reason why we are pissed. I wont hide behind closed doors and whisper my prayers. You may like to do that so you can pretend your still having the balls to stand up for Talos but I will openly worship him.

 

Ysmir is a Nordic God. His avatar aided Talos in his pursuits and the Nords have never opposed Talos' godhood. Unless you mean his military might. Well then at that your right. The Nords were invading Cyrodiil and were halted at Sancre Tor by Talos.

 

Ysmir is Talos. Read the lore. Its stated several times that they are one in the same.

 

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ysmir

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ysmir

 

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Wulfharth

 

Ysmir = Talos

 

Ysmir = Pelinal Whitestrake

 

Ysmir = Your TES character in TES: V

 

I didnt want to have to give you (Stormhammer81) my replies because you helped me in my time of need, (When you were a Stormcloak) And I didnt turn around and attack you when you switched sides again because thats exactly what the Empire did. So that would destroy my argument.

 

Skyrim is not all a wasteland. Thats my point. Parts may be but not all.

 

Skyrim, once again, has the farms and mines to support itself for trade and food. I remember hearing NPC's claim how Cyrodiil has many, many problems and cant support the legions and its own people.

 

Cyrodiil isnt the messiah of lands. In fact its quite the opposite. Its the best example of how bad of shape the Empire is in.

[StormHammer81]

 

Agreed. Which is another reason why they are better off together than separate.

 

The cold frightening truth is that Cyrodil and Skyrim need each other and neither one will go very far alone.

 

IMHO this truth is worth guarding with an army of lies.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2013 by StormHammer81

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Cyrodiil needs Skyrim but Skyrim has and will survive without Cyrodiil.

[StormHammer81]

I didnt want to have to give you (Stormhammer81) my replies because you helped me in my time of need, (When you were a Stormcloak) And I didnt turn around and attack you when you switched sides again because thats exactly what the Empire did. So that would destroy my argument.

 

@Stormcloak117

 

Well, truthfully it was Sithis who turned on me *first* hahaha go figure right. Like how could anyone not see that one coming?

 

Unfortunately, we are at war with all the glory and horror that comes along with it. The Legion could really use someone like you, you've seen the true face of the Stormcloaks here on these two forums.

 

If you should ever decide to change your mind, we would welcome you. Although you would be expected to swear allegiance to the Empire of Talos, not to the Empire of Mede.

Edited February 27, 2013 by StormHammer81

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Kayyyleb, you never answered my question. Where is the proof about Skyrim relying on Cyrodiil for food?

[Echoside]

I hope you all don't mind me throwing in my two cents into this discussion, I love these type of debates and am rather good at them. (or I like to think so :P )

 

In my personal opinion the Aldmeri Dominion pretty much has this in the bag from my perspective.

 

I'll start with the Stormcloaks, should Ulfric win the civil war and withdraw Skyrim from the Empire, he going to find himself short of friends and with many enemies. His xenophobic way will push away the two closest to neutral parties, Morrowind and Black Marsh, from joining him against the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire is going to be far from happy and are going to be less then friendly with the now independent Skyrim and will most likely just close relations with them or attempt to take them for all they can in minor trade deals if not out right attack them(Which I don't see them being willing to waste even more man power and resources). Hammerfell may be willing to ally with them but just the two of them wouldn't be enough to stop the AD forces and they have to be careful of the Empire because the Empire could simply take advantage of them expending their forces against the AD to recapture them and try to rebind the Empire. High Rock could possibly be bullied into an alliance as with Hammerfell and Skyrim on it's borders they could literally shut down trade into and out of it but then they would have to spend troops to subjugate and watch for signs of them going rogue. Overall, Skyrim would be locked into inaction because when they focus on one force the other will slit their throat while they are weak.

 

 

The Empire on the other hand is slowly collapsing on itself, it's seat of power has been ravaged by war, bandits, and political corruption. It's lost Hammerfell's loyalty and respect, is only going to hold Skyrim through occupation, and has lost a lot of support from Morrowind from doing nothing in regards to the Argonian Invasion. Black Marsh is an unknown as of now, where their loyalties lie is anyone's guess for all we know they could be planning on making an Argonian Empire.

 

I'll start with the Empire's hold on Skyrim. Their first mistake will be the killing of Ulfric, this makes him a martyr to his supporters and only reinforces the image and idea of the Empire abandoning Talos because they are weak. It's also forcing the Stormcloak movement underground(making them hard to fight), which until the Empire actively moves against the AD and disregard the WGC publicly, they will be doing everything in their power to undermine the Imperial presence in Skyrim. Which means the Empire is going to have to garrison troops to keep the peace and protect certain assets. It will also make the AD call for stricter means to enforce the WGC giving Thalmor even more access to Skyrim's interior, thus giving them a great lay of the land and key points in which they can preemptively start working to sabotage the Empire's efforts and resources. Basically the Empire is going to end up spending more man power and resources trying to keep Skyrim in line then it'll be worth in the long run of things.

 

Now we move on to Hammerfell, Titus Mede released them from the Empire because they refused to follow the WGC and refused to let the AD occupy the southern part of their country that he ceded in negotiations with the AD. These actions which would most likely be seen as abandonment of the Hammerfell people who had served the loyally against the AD in the Great War are going to make any type of negotiations a tense affair. Hammerfell isn't going to want to be subject to Imperial rule and have a major reason to out right distrust them, not to mention they were able to push the Aldmeri Dominion from their lands on their own without the Empire's support. The Empires actions in Skyrim are going to even further make affairs tense because in the back of the leaders of Hammerfell's heads their going to think that if they submit or ally with the Empire an any fashion they will do the same to them as they did Skyrim.

 

And the final two, Morrowind and Black Marsh. Morrowind is greatly damaged between Baar Dau (If you don't know what this is then you should be ashamed of yourself.) falling, Red Mountain blowing, and the Argonain Invasion they are unlikely to be willing or able to help the Empire. While on the other hand Black Marsh is a complete unknown it's speculated and a bit implied that they seceded from the Empire. The Oblivion Crisis cause a great surge in Argonian nationalism and a reconfirmation of their allegiance/faith(Might not be the best word but it's the closest I can think of to use to explain) to/in the Hist Trees.

 

Between the internal strife within Cyrodil and questionable loyalty of the other countries in it's makeup, I can't see the Empire surviving or defeating the Aldmeri Dominion without a complete and utter miracle.

 

-----

And in response to some above post.

 

Skyrim is very resource rich. The Rift has farms and Whiterun's plains are easily farming lands when not in the mist of a civil war. Not to mention that they are rich in meat from deers, highland cows, goats, chickens, and mammoths(One of which could feed many). They also have a lot of coast line for fishing, which if you look in Nordic Ruins there happen to be pictures of fish/whales in certain places. Mammoths alone show that there must be some types of thriving edible plant life to maintain their population.

 

Ysmir is a title meaning Dragon of the North in the old tongue(Most likely Atmoran). I know of two people who have held that title(off-hand) Tiber Septim/Talos and the current Dovahkiin, it was given to both of them by the Greybeards when they acknowledged them as Dragonborn.

 

"Naal Thu'umu, mu ofan nii nu, Dovahkiin, naal suleyk do Kaan, naal
suleyk do Shor, ahrk naal suleyk do Atmorasewuth. Meyz nu Ysmir,
Dovahsebrom. Dahmaan daar rok."

 

"By our breath we bestow it now to you in the name of Kyne, in the name
of Shor, and in the name of Atmora of old. You are Ysmir now, the Dragon
of the North. Hearken to it"

 

So yes Talos was Ysmir, as is the current Dovahkiin.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Echoside