Imperial VS Stormcloak

[kradus]

Skyrim has shown it can grow a sustainable amount of food. Whiterun hold shows this, the Rift, Falkreath, Eastmarch, the Reach, Haafingar most of the holds show this is very possible and the cities of these holds are supported by these very farms. Those that I didnt mention (The Pale, Hjalmarch, Winterhold) have access to water and ports for trade. Each hold can easily support itself.

 

There is no proof that Skyrim supposedly relies on anyone else for food. So that argument is wrong.

 

People do complain about how hard it is to grow food on Skyrim's cold stony earth.

If you listen to talk in the Thalmor embassy you'll hear that every farm in skyrim is barely scraping by, with Rorikstead being the single exeption. You can confirm this yourself by talking to Jouane Manette in Rorikstead.

I'll not say Skyrim can't produce enought food to feed it's own people, but if you're planning any sort of millitary campaign, you'll need large ammounts of it. Especially if many of your people will have to stop farming in order to become soldiers. You really have to make a choice.

With the segregation of the empire, trade is one of the first things to suffer. The east empire company for example, which is backed by imperial coin, will no longer be able to operate. So the stormcloaks are essencially shutting themselfs in Skyrim.

 

Leaving Cyrodill to be plundered a second time by the Dominion is just another terrible tactical move any way you look at it.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Your right that Morrowind wont ally with Skyrim but they arent enemies. Not now, Skyrim is a safe haven for the Dunmer, the Nords may dislike this but its been the case for thousand of years.

 

Blackmarsh, well the Argonians are an enemy of the AD. They are the only race not related to the Aedra, along with the Khajiits. (However its spelled)

 

Ulfric will be, yes, not happy to receive aid because it makes Skyrim look weak but he more than likely will because without it, it depletes Skyrims resources more quickly.

 

Ulfric isnt the perfect man but he's not stupid either. No matter how much someone wants to argue it.

[StormHammer81]

 

@With the segregation of the empire, trade is one of the first things to suffer. The east empire company for example, which is backed by imperial coin, will no longer be able to operate. So the stormcloaks are essencially shutting themselfs in Skyrim.

 

If Skyrim should manage to secede you might as well can kiss "East Empire" goodbye. If Imperial warships and cruisers can't escort our supply ships thru Stormcloak waters, then the pirates will have a field day. Not to mention how can we trust the Stormcloaks naval forces and ports to protect Imperial assets?

 

@Stormcloak117

 

 

Ulfric isnt the perfect man but he's not stupid either. No matter how much someone wants to argue it.

 

Lack of intelligence isn't Ulfric's weakness, it's pride. Pride will do.

Edited February 27, 2013 by StormHammer81

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Its the Nords first priority to secure Skyrim. Not Cyrodiil like it has been for the past Era and a half.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The East Empire is present in Windhelm and establishes trade with Skyrim even when its independent.

 

Still no one has answered my question. Where is the proof that Skyrim relies on anyone else for food?

Edited February 27, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[Echoside]

Your right that Morrowind wont ally with Skyrim but they arent enemies. Not now, Skyrim is a safe haven for the Dunmer, the Nords may dislike this but its been the case for thousand of years.

 

Blackmarsh, well the Argonians are an enemy of the AD. They are the only race not related to the Aedra, along with the Khajiits. (However its spelled)

 

Ulfric will be, yes, not happy to receive aid because it makes Skyrim look weak but he more than likely will because without it, it depletes Skyrims resources more quickly.

 

Ulfric isnt the perfect man but he's not stupid either. No matter how much someone wants to argue it.

 

No, Skyrim is not a safe haven for the Dunmer. It was merely a point of evacuation for refugees to go to. Ulfric's treatment of the Dark Elves within Windhelm show he doesn't particularly care what happens to them considering he wasn't even born when they start fleeing into Skyrim.

 

There has been no in game sources or lore showing any particular leanings of the Argonians within the current Great War's Participants.

 

The thing about receiving aid is that someone has to be willing to give it and Ulfric methods don't exactly encourage good relations with non-human races or the Empire.

 

We also have no way of know what the East Empire would do in long term because Skyrim(game) doesn't cover any of the ramifications of civil war outside minor things such as which troops occupy where, which Jarls are in power and Talo worship. We don't even see the moot happen or hear of it being planned or called.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Echoside

[kradus]

Stormcloak117, on 27 Feb 2013 - 01:36, said:

The East Empire is present in Windhelm and establishes trade with Skyrim even when its independent.

 

Still no one has answered my question. Where is the proof that Skyrim relies on anyone else for food?

 

kradus, on 27 Feb 2013 - 01:23, said:

 

Stormcloak117, on 27 Feb 2013 - 00:57, said:

Skyrim has shown it can grow a sustainable amount of food. Whiterun hold shows this, the Rift, Falkreath, Eastmarch, the Reach, Haafingar most of the holds show this is very possible and the cities of these holds are supported by these very farms. Those that I didnt mention (The Pale, Hjalmarch, Winterhold) have access to water and ports for trade. Each hold can easily support itself.

 

There is no proof that Skyrim supposedly relies on anyone else for food. So that argument is wrong.

People do complain about how hard it is to grow food on Skyrim's cold stony earth.

If you listen to talk in the Thalmor embassy you'll hear that every farm in skyrim is barely scraping by, with Rorikstead being the single exeption. You can confirm this yourself by talking to Jouane Manette in Rorikstead.

I'll not say Skyrim can't produce enought food to feed it's own people, but if you're planning any sort of millitary campaign, you'll need large ammounts of it. Especially if many of your people will have to stop farming in order to become soldiers. You really have to make a choice.

With the segregation of the empire, trade is one of the first things to suffer. The east empire company for example, which is backed by imperial coin, will no longer be able to operate. So the stormcloaks are essencially shutting themselfs in Skyrim.

 

Leaving Cyrodill to be plundered a second time by the Dominion is just another terrible tactical move any way you look at it.

Echoside, on 27 Feb 2013 - 01:42, said:

 

We also have no way of know what the East Empire would do in long term because Skyrim(game) doesn't cover any of the ramifications of civil war outside minor things such as which troops occupy where, which Jarls are in power and Talo worship. We don't even see the moot happen or hear of it being planned or called.

 

We know the company is supported by the emperor. No empire, no treasury, no Cyrodill, no company. You'll notice that it's primarily ran by imperials

Edited February 27, 2013 by kradus

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

My question still stands. Where is the f*cking proof?

 

I understand its complicated to farm in Skyrim but Its currently not impossible.

 

Supporting an Army, yes, takes a lot of food but its not like its not there. The farms aren't all scraping by. Some are but not all.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[StormHammer81]

I hope you all don't mind me throwing in my two cents into this discussion, I love these type of debates and am rather good at them. (or I like to think so :P )

 

 

Not at all, unlike Sithis, I believe in Freedom of Speech and would love to listen to what you have to say, citizen.

 

 

In my personal opinion the Aldmeri Dominion pretty much has this in the bag from my perspective.

 

 

They do, they knew what they were doing before this all began.

 

I'll start with the Stormcloaks, should Ulfric win the civil war and withdraw Skyrim from the Empire, he going to find himself short of friends and with many enemies. His xenophobic way will push away the two closest to neutral parties, Morrowind and Black Marsh, from joining him against the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire is going to be far from happy and are going to be less then friendly with the now independent Skyrim and will most likely just close relations with them or attempt to take them for all they can in minor trade deals if not out right attack them(Which I don't see them being willing to waste even more man power and resources). Hammerfell may be willing to ally with them but just the two of them wouldn't be enough to stop the AD forces and they have to be careful of the Empire because the Empire could simply take advantage of them expending their forces against the AD to recapture them and try to rebind the Empire. High Rock could possibly be bullied into an alliance as with Hammerfell and Skyrim on it's borders they could literally shut down trade into and out of it but then they would have to spend troops to subjugate and watch for signs of them going rogue. Overall, Skyrim would be locked into inaction because when they focus on one force the other will slit their throat while they are weak.

 

If Skyrim secedes from the Empire, then we will not have the manpower or resources to re-conquer that province. I also highly doubt the Elder Council will have enough credability to hold the remaining provinces together at that point. I prefer to remain optimistic, as the Empire has always been a positive, uniting force in Tamriel and for what greater glory than it's salvation?

 

The Empire on the other hand is slowly collapsing on itself, it's seat of power has been ravaged by war, bandits, and political corruption. It's lost Hammerfell's loyalty and respect, is only going to hold Skyrim through occupation, and has lost a lot of support from Morrowind from doing nothing in regards to the Argonian Invasion. Black Marsh is an unknown as of now, where their loyalties lie is anyone's guess for all we know they could be planning on making an Argonian Empire.

 

 

We haven't lost all support in Morrowind. It's true House Redoran while not in rebellion, doesn't seem to support the Empire. Although, they are not the only house in Morrowind and all of them still pay their taxes and adhere to Imperial law.

 

Ulfric's death will make things complicated in the long run. However, the needs of the Empire demands we bring him to justice soon. IN a way, his death could leave an impression on the Empire for change. I wouldn't count that out either, because change is coming.

 

I'll start with the Empire's hold on Skyrim. Their first mistake will be the killing of Ulfric, this makes him a martyr to his supporters and only reinforces the image and idea of the Empire abandoning Talos because they are weak. It's also forcing the Stormcloak movement underground(making them hard to fight), which until the Empire actively moves against the AD and disregard the WGC publicly, they will be doing everything in their power to undermine the Imperial presence in Skyrim. Which means the Empire is going to have to garrison troops to keep the peace and protect certain assets. It will also make the AD call for stricter means to enforce the WGC giving Thalmor even more access to Skyrim's interior, thus giving them a great lay of the land and key points in which they can preemptively start working to sabotage the Empire's efforts and resources. Basically the Empire is going to end up spending more man power and resources trying to keep Skyrim in line then it'll be worth in the long run of things.

 

 

In regards to the Dominion, they will not just be fighting against Skyrim, the Dominion will have to deal with the Empire. Last time Skyrim was virtually ignored by them, although it's possibly they will be placing a higher emphasis on hitting Skyrim next time due to the unfolding geo-political situation.

 

Now we move on to Hammerfell, Titus Mede released them from the Empire because they refused to follow the WGC and refused to let the AD occupy the southern part of their country that he ceded in negotiations with the AD. These actions which would most likely be seen as abandonment of the Hammerfell people who had served the loyally against the AD in the Great War are going to make any type of negotiations a tense affair. Hammerfell isn't going to want to be subject to Imperial rule and have a major reason to out right distrust them, not to mention they were able to push the Aldmeri Dominion from their lands on their own without the Empire's support. The Empires actions in Skyrim are going to even further make affairs tense because in the back of the leaders of Hammerfell's heads their going to think that if they submit or ally with the Empire an any fashion they will do the same to them as they did Skyrim.

 

Negotiations of any kind between the Empire and Hammerfell will be very delegate. I don't think sending them a simple "apology" is a good idea. It will take time and alot of work to undo the damage done, probably a lifetime if not longer... or another war with the Dominion.

 

And the final two, Morrowind and Black Marsh. Morrowind is greatly damaged between Baar Dau (If you don't know what this is then you should be ashamed of yourself.) falling, Red Mountain blowing, and the Argonain Invasion they are unlikely to be willing or able to help the Empire...

 

Between the internal strife within Cyrodil and questionable loyalty of the other countries in it's makeup, I can't see the Empire surviving or defeating the Aldmeri Dominion without a complete and utter miracle.

 

You're right these are dark times for the Empire, and the Legion will soon be called into service like never before. However, the Legion as always stands ready to meet that call. No Legion can fail to make a worthy contribution to the general result. IF the Empire can it's remaining provinces together, we might stand a chance. In order to do that, we'll need to stop Ulfric first. Then we can deal with the Dominion on our own terms.

 

Skyrim is very resource rich. The Rift has farms and Whiterun's plains are easily farming lands when not in the mist of a civil war. Not to mention that they are rich in meat from deers, highland cows, goats, chickens, and mammoths(One of which could feed many). They also have a lot of coast line for fishing, which if you look in Nordic Ruins there happen to be pictures of fish/whales in certain places. Mammoths alone show that there must be some types of thriving edible plant life to maintain their population.

 

Well while this may be true, poaching is illegal and this law has been enforced by the Jarls in every hold.

 

 

"By our breath we bestow it now to you in the name of Kyne, in the name

of Shor, and in the name of Atmora of old. You are Ysmir now, the Dragon

of the North. Hearken to it"

 

So yes Talos was Ysmir, as is the current Dovahkiin.

 

 

You Nords and your bloody sense of honor. So that means Ysmir was a title named after the man? Ysmir and Talos could have then held the same title, however they were both very different in ideology. Thanks!

Edited February 27, 2013 by StormHammer81

[Echoside]

 

Echoside, on 27 Feb 2013 - 01:42, said:

 

We also have no way of know what the East Empire would do in long term because Skyrim(game) doesn't cover any of the ramifications of civil war outside minor things such as which troops occupy where, which Jarls are in power and Talo worship. We don't even see the moot happen or hear of it being planned or called.

 

We know the company is supported by the emperor. No empire, no treasury, no Cyrodill, no company. You'll notice that it's primarily ran by imperials

 

Yes and no. The company is backed and supported by the Empire but not directly controlled by it. You'll also notice that even during a civil war they were still willing to trade with a rebel city. What I question is the fairness of their prices after a Stormcloak win, they may still be will to trade just with a significant mark up on goods.

 

@StormHammer81

Are you a propagandist in real life? :P

 

See Morrowind is tricky because they don't have to obey Imperial Law. Part of Morrowind's agreement to joining the Empire back in the day was keeping their autonomy while making the equivalent of a mutual defense pack. The Empire's failure to assist in matter relating to the Argonian Invasion could be seen as breaking these terms.

 

I doubt a Jarl would consider feed their people poaching.

 

The title Ysmir exisited before the man Ysmir you are probably talking about.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Echoside