Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Kayyyleb]

But as we can see from TES history factions can be started at nearly anytime. What I cant stand is that you cant kill the legates in the camps without mods. Thats really annoying.

 

Ulfric is the leader of a faction that his people started. He is fighting for the Stormcloaks which are Nords that want independence. I was once a die hard Imperial and rushed to kill Stormcloaks at first site. Then I got the Jagged Crown, I was kind of thrown off balance by it and then looked up the Stormcloaks and the Great War and looked into the events of TES V Skyrim and saw what I had done. I ran the Crown to Ulfric and asked to join the Stormcloaks. I never looked back from that.

You can't kill Stormcloak captains either. And the camps keep respawning every week or so...very annoying since I would rather send them all to Sovngarde than let them wander around behaving like your average brigands. You lost the war so go home...and that applies to both the Stormcloaks and Imperials depending on which side you choose.

 

Ulfric is the leader of a faction that Ulfric started. Suggesting otherwise is dishonest. Ulfric killed Torygg as a popularity stunt to garner legitimacy for his attempt at the throne. Ulfric is not about the people, Ulfric is in it for Ulfric. Numerous sources in the game suggest that Ulfric could've gotten what he wanted diplomatically by simply speaking to Torygg so this whole rebellion nonsense is really just a result of Ulfric's power lust.

[kradus]

As for Balgruuf, the stormcloak rebellion would not have died with Ulfric - that's been argued before. Even Tullius doesn't believe it'll die down, in fact he fears and expects it'll get worse and he wants to brace for that in his post-victory speech dialogue. If Balgruuf can see an opportunity for self-advancement in taking it up (which we argued would exist), it would definitely be in his character to make a move for it.

Tullius - "The fiercest of the remaining rebels will continue to harass us, but by and large,the people here desire peace,..."

Rikke - " There are those who still call themselfs stormcloaks, who continue to fight us and bring misery to the people. But they are few in number. The ordinary citizen will be happy to get back to life as normal, to have their families return home."

 

 

Kradus,

 

We don't know how many Jarls were carrying on the stormcloak struggle while Ulfric was in prison but we do know the war was on-going. The Snow-Shod patriach - Wulfiurth talks about his daughter who had joined the stormcloaks early on- and had been killed many years ago. There's also the Solaf in Falkreath who talks of Stormcloak battles years in the past. All we have to go on is that Igmund places the birth of the Stormcloaks in 176, when the Empire reneged on its terms agreed with Ulfric and that Ulfric was thereafter in prison until Toryyg was crowned HK. There was an unspecified lapse of time from when he was crowned until Ulfric challenged him in 201. All this time, with or without Ulfric the Stormcloaks have been fighting and I can't imagine the battle continuing without any Jarls behind it, but there just isn't enough information to go on. We don't know how long Ulfric was in prison. We don't even know how long Toryyg had been High King before he was killed.

We know which Jarls side with the empire, and we know that the rebel jarls are removed from power. So, bottom line, no rebelious Jarls are left to keep fighting.

 

Firstly, it's not an unpopular war - that would imply a majority do not want the war at all and that's untrue. Even if only 50% of the population supports the war - that's a huge number! But we can assume the vast majority of the "unseen" population of Skyrim are nords and we can assume the nords we do meet in game and talk to represent the sentiments of these untold masses. Of the nords we meet, most support the war whole-hardheartedly. The people who don't count as outright stormcoak supporters are non-nords (which we can assume are an over-all minority) or 'don't care either way' with the exception of the Battle-Borns and that one Snow-Shod son engaged to the Emperor's cousin. They went to the whole length of putting in Roggvir, his execution and family to show-case that even in the heart of imperial power, in Solitude there are those who'd stand up for Ulfric and filled Castle Dour Dungeons with oppressed and persecuted nords. So in short, calling it an unpopular war is just false.

It is an unpopular war, because the npc's who express themselfs against the empire are indeed only a few. No one else supports the war, they just want to go about their business.

Edited March 10, 2013 by kradus

[fraquar]

Actually, those numerous sources could suggest all they want - and they'd be drunk on mead. The only way Ulfric was getting what he wanted politically is for the Thalmor and Imperial presence to get the hell out of Skyrim's business.

 

That wasn't happening with a simple "talk" with the High King. Thats a pipedream.

 

Listen to Balgruuf if you want to understand the seeds of Ulfric's discontent - the Jarl's had no say whatsoever in Skyrim's compliance with the WGC - it was bought and paid for through Torygg's dad. Thats why he has as much faith in the moot as he does the High King he killed - nobody is willing to do anything about the situation in Skyrim except Ulfric.

 

In fact, nobody was willing to do anything to retake The Reach - which was taken over by the Forsworn when Skyrim was bled of all it's able bodied soldiers off fighting in the Great War. The Reach did need to be retaken - if for no other reason than to get the Silver flowing into Imperial coffers again.

[kradus]

Listen to Balgruuf if you want to understand the seeds of Ulfric's discontent - the Jarl's had no say whatsoever in Skyrim's compliance with the WGC - it was bought and paid for through Torygg's dad. Thats why he has as much faith in the moot as he does the High King he killed - nobody is willing to do anything about the situation in Skyrim except Ulfric.

 

Very true.

[Kayyyleb]

Actually, those numerous sources could suggest all they want - and they'd be drunk on mead. The only way Ulfric was getting what he wanted politically is for the Thalmor and Imperial presence to get the hell out of Skyrim's business.

 

That wasn't happening with a simple "talk" with the High King. Thats a pipedream.

 

Listen to Balgruuf if you want to understand the seeds of Ulfric's discontent - the Jarl's had no say whatsoever in Skyrim's compliance with the WGC - it was bought and paid for through Torygg's dad. Thats why he has as much faith in the moot as he does the High King he killed - nobody is willing to do anything about the situation in Skyrim except Ulfric.

 

In fact, nobody was willing to do anything to retake The Reach - which was taken over by the Forsworn when Skyrim was bled of all it's able bodied soldiers off fighting in the Great War. The Reach did need to be retaken - if for no other reason than to get the Silver flowing into Imperial coffers again.

Ah ok anyone who disagrees with you is drunk. Seems legit.

 

The high king respected Ulfric. It's even suggested that the king would've seceded from the Empire willingly had Ulfric made his case to the man instead of murdering him. That's not a pipedream, though if you only want to believe what pro-Stormcloak NPCs have to say about any given subject then I can see why you'd be convinced as such. Ulfric's idea of doing something about the situation amounts to declaring war on half his own country because he's disgruntled with foreign influence...now THAT makes sense. -.- It is a great way to take over the throne if it's your real goal though.

 

So what if nobody was doing anything about the Reach? What are they supposed to do? The whole army is off fighting the Dominion so where are the troops to retake the Reach supposed to come from? Speaking of pipedreams...

[fraquar]

They'd have to be drunk to think that all Ulfric needed to do was talk to Torygg and his concerns would be addressed. Ulfric wanted what the High King couldn't possibly deliver, unless Torygg joined Ulfric and Skyrim ended up telling the Empire they were no longer honoring the terms of the WGC.

 

You really think thats all Ulfric needed to do - a simple talk - to make that happen?

 

Got plenty of swampland in Yuma for sale to any drunk Nord who thinks that.

[kradus]

They'd have to be drunk to think that all Ulfric needed to do was talk to Torygg and his concerns would be addressed. Ulfric wanted what the High King couldn't possibly deliver, unless Torygg joined Ulfric and Skyrim ended up telling the Empire they were no longer honoring the terms of the WGC.

 

You really think thats all Ulfric needed to do - a simple talk - to make that happen?

 

Yes, a simple talk might have worked, because Torygg looked up to Ulfric. This is the educated opinion of one who knew the last two kings well. Ulfric could have tried one of his speeches, but his objective went beyond the end of the WGC.

 

The man already had his mind made for war, of course, someone else made up his mind for him, and that's why he didn't even consider the diplomatic approach.

[Kayyyleb]

 

They'd have to be drunk to think that all Ulfric needed to do was talk to Torygg and his concerns would be addressed. Ulfric wanted what the High King couldn't possibly deliver, unless Torygg joined Ulfric and Skyrim ended up telling the Empire they were no longer honoring the terms of the WGC.

 

You really think thats all Ulfric needed to do - a simple talk - to make that happen?

 

Yes, a simple talk might have worked, because Torygg looked up to Ulfric. This is the educated opinion of one who knew the last two kings well. Ulfric could have tried one of his speeches, but his objective went beyond the end of the WGC.

 

The man already had his mind made for war, of course, someone else made up his mind for him, and that's why he didn't even consider the diplomatic approach.

This. Thank you.

[sisterof]

Between quotes taking up 1/2 of a page because the quoting system doesn't work and peoples sigs taking up a 1/4 of a page, I'll simply refrain from doing any more quoting.

You can manually erase what you don't want quoted. It's annoying but works and makes it easier to follow who's answering to who, in my opinion.

 

On a side note, my questions got utterly ignored.

<goes kick pebbles somewhere, violins play in the background>

 

[Seangamer]

Wow, 96 pages... The op just wanted some points of view on how to decide... and it became a hijacked pissing match fairly quickly... still going strong almost 16 months later... I have my opinion just like everyone else. I have played a nord who sided wiht the stormcloaks and a breton who sided with the imperials. And a Breton that played through the MQ and almost all of the faction quests without ever choosing sides. I have heard all the In game arguments and find meta game arguments tedious to the extreme. Earth history, the definition of empire, oppression, Truth with a capital T. are all irrelivent. This is a Role Playing game.

 

What it boils down to is simple. Who is your character? What are their motivations? Are they law abiding? Rebelious? Criminal? Chaotic? Whimsical? Skyrim is a Role playing game... The original poster wanted advice on playing a role. The decision of which side (if any) to support should be your characters. Not yours. What would your character do? How do they think about the world? Are they emotional? Analytical?

 

And a note to any that would attempt to say that one side is superior to the other, You are of course correct... All of you. I agree completely, your side is the obvious choice.