Optional Constructive Criticism.

[OnlyOneWing]

I am pretty new to the Nexus, but I've noticed something. People do not comment very much on mods that are posted.

I think this may be because the border line between constructive criticism and bashing is invisible. Both seem to be frowned upon by staff.

 

I was a pretty active member at DevantArt.com for a while... At DA when you submit work for view you choose whether you want only praise, constructive criticism or no comments at all.

I simply propose that there be a similar selection for us when we post our files. So that others will know that constructive criticism is welcome. Maybe that will stop mods from getting 10,000 views and 0 comments.

Edited November 27, 2011 by OnlyOneWing

[Overmind267]

  On 11/27/2011 at 4:33 PM, OnlyOneWing said:

I am pretty new to the Nexus, but I've noticed something. People do not comment very much on mods that are posted.

I think this may be because the border line between constructive criticism and bashing is invisible. Both seem to be frowned upon by staff.

 

I was a pretty active member at DevantArt.com for a while... At DA when you submit work for view you choose whether you want only praise, constructive criticism or no comments at all.

I simply propose that there be a similar selection for us when we post our files. So that others will know that constructive criticism is welcome. Maybe that will stop mods from getting 10,000 views and 0 comments.

 

Agreed. The staff tends to take an "It's a subjective view. That is, our subjective view determines what your comment means." standpoint. In response to the, "Yeah, but it was actually constructive criticism you banned me for," argument, I've been seeing the not-so-helpful, "If you don't want to risk being banned, just don't comment" counter-argument.

 

It's all just flawed logic mixed with thin-skin and an itchy trigger finger. Risking your account and IP being permanently banned for posting your opinion just isn't worth it, so mods with 10,000 views will, realistically, just be "passed in silence", since viewers don't want the anxiety of a possible ban to occur. This means that, as is the norm for strict sites, a select few veteran members who give a vague opinion, newbies who may very well be banned for honest opinions, and some unclear posts by our middle-aged members mixed with a bunch of awkward "lol"s in between to "lighten up the mood" will dominate the comments.

 

What does this mean for the mod author? Well, they have no clue what people want changed. All they can see is a bunch of awkward, meaningless statements from people too afraid to give honest opinions in fear of the "YOU DIDNT LIKE THIS MOD? YOU ARE TROLLING, THUS YOU ARE BANNED" post with their name slapped on it as an announcement in the ban threads section.

 

Such an option would define what the mod author wants. if they only want the usual "Great mod!" to be viewed, they will get it, and anyone deviating from that line will be banned accordingly. If they want constructive criticism and tag their mod accordingly, there would be no reason for the staff to take the protective parent standpoint and risk banning downloaders who are just giving positive feedback.

[OnlyOneWing]

  On 11/27/2011 at 5:22 PM, Overmind267 said:

  On 11/27/2011 at 4:33 PM, OnlyOneWing said:

I am pretty new to the Nexus, but I've noticed something. People do not comment very much on mods that are posted.

I think this may be because the border line between constructive criticism and bashing is invisible. Both seem to be frowned upon by staff.

 

I was a pretty active member at DevantArt.com for a while... At DA when you submit work for view you choose whether you want only praise, constructive criticism or no comments at all.

I simply propose that there be a similar selection for us when we post our files. So that others will know that constructive criticism is welcome. Maybe that will stop mods from getting 10,000 views and 0 comments.

 

Agreed. The staff tends to take an "It's a subjective view. That is, our subjective view determines what your comment means." standpoint. In response to the, "Yeah, but it was actually constructive criticism you banned me for," argument, I've been seeing the not-so-helpful, "If you don't want to risk being banned, just don't comment" counter-argument.

 

It's all just flawed logic mixed with thin-skin and an itchy trigger finger. Risking your account and IP being permanently banned for posting your opinion just isn't worth it, so mods with 10,000 views will, realistically, just be "passed in silence", since viewers don't want the anxiety of a possible ban to occur. This means that, as is the norm for strict sites, a select few veteran members who give a vague opinion, newbies who may very well be banned for honest opinions, and some unclear posts by our middle-aged members mixed with a bunch of awkward "lol"s in between to "lighten up the mood" will dominate the comments.

 

What does this mean for the mod author? Well, they have no clue what people want changed. All they can see is a bunch of awkward, meaningless statements from people too afraid to give honest opinions in fear of the "YOU DIDNT LIKE THIS MOD? YOU ARE TROLLING, THUS YOU ARE BANNED" post with their name slapped on it as an announcement in the ban threads section.

 

Such an option would define what the mod author wants. if they only want the usual "Great mod!" to be viewed, they will get it, and anyone deviating from that line will be banned accordingly. If they want constructive criticism and tag their mod accordingly, there would be no reason for the staff to take the protective parent standpoint and risk banning downloaders who are just giving positive feedback.

 

Well,I guess it's a quantity vs quality approach. The world is full of people that want to be praised, but no one ever improved from a "Great mod!" comment. But there are some hypersensitive people out there, also there are little kids, and there are jerks. So some people don't know how to react to constructive criticism and others don't know how to give constructive criticism... Those people are the way they are because all they have ever gotten was either "Great job!" or insults.

 

But yeah, I don't think any of us wants to see blatant insults. The option to specify a request for constructive criticism would solve the hypersensitive issue.

[Thandal]

(This topic comes up with some frequency, but it doesn't hurt to repeat what's been said elsewhere.)

 

An underlying principal of the Nexus is it exists to PROMOTE mods, and that means to suppport and encourage modders.

 

Without mod authors, no Nexus. Therefore we actively strive to create an environment where the newbie modder is protected from the (unbelievably!) large numbers of trolls, ghouls, and vampires infesting the internetz, and the old-hands know their work is valued and treated fairly. To that end, we always start from the author's perspective when assessing reports of abuse or inappropriate comments.

 

There is also a very important difference betweeen the Files Area (comments regarding works that people have freely offered to the community) and the general discussion forums. We allow a much broader range of opinion and language on the "Forums" than in the "Files Area."

 

Here are just some of the various "official" Nexus pronouncements regarding this issue:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

From the Terms of Service:

  Quote

File and image database commenting and rating

 

Please take the time to read and understand the following before commenting on any files or images uploaded to this site.

 

We have a strict zero-tolerance policy for the breaking of our terms and people can and will be banned from the site without warning if they ignore them. Remember; ignorance is not an excuse.

 

The commenting, endorsement and rating system is available on Nexus sites to provide users with:

 

o an interface to offer positive feedback on the functionality of the file in question based on the author’s initial intentions

 

o the ability to offer constructive criticism on aspects of the file that could be improved

 

o the chance to ask for feature requests and discuss such requests with other users of the site or the author

 

o the ability to ask for help in troubleshooting problems with the file in question

 

If your comment does not fit in to the above criteria then do not post. If you disagree with the content of a file on the site then do not post. Simply ignore the file and move on. If you believe the content of the file breaches the Nexus terms and conditions then please report the file for moderator viewing and move on, do not take matters in to your own hands.

 

If your comment contains text that is likely to personally offend other users of the site either in the language you use or the message of your text then do not post. We take personal attacks very seriously and you will be banned without warning.

Notice that there is only ONE category of allowable "mod comment" that provides for criticism, and that is if it's "constructive".

 

But what is "constructive criticism"? We answer that in the Dark0ne's policy statement here:

All newbies read this before posting.

 

In it, he says,

  Quote

Chapter X - Constructive Criticism

 

Constructive criticism is voicing your concern about an idea or implementation of a mod as well as providing a possible solution.

 

This requires both parts:

 

Constructive = Providing a solution

Criticism = Voicing concern

 

Constructive criticism is NOT directed at any person or group of people. Any comments that are directed at people can fall under vigilantism, flaming and trolling.

 

 

I think the take away from all this can be reduced to:

 

Rule regarding comments about other people's mods in the "Files Area":

  Quote

Don't like it? Don't use it. But pass in silence.

(Or as your mother taught you; "If you can't say anything nice..." )

 

I'll finish this (very) long post by directing anyone who still has questions to another thread where several of the Staff have expanded on these issues: Difference between constructive criticism and trolling.

 

Thanks to all our authors out there! We really appreciate what you do. :thumbsup:

[DrakeTheDragon]

I'm sorry, thread starters and supporters, but at this point I must insist you show me "1" single person banned for "constructive criticism", now.

I haven't yet found any, and I'm checking the banned list regularly, in utter disbelief about what people nowadays think is right to do or is "their right".

 

You telling people have to keep quiet in fear of bans and thus mods not receiving any comments at all anymore is just nonsense.

There have not been any unjustified bans, yet, and the people banned were really not a loss at all, just reading their posts and getting into their wrong mindsets.

 

Granted, there might in fact be modders very light-skinned and easily offended, but still as long as the staff doesn't agree it's trolling, a user giving actual constructive criticism, which just wasn't liked by the author, will still not simply get banned due to this.

On the contrary most modders "want" criticism.

 

I for one "hate" having WIP mods up for years but not receiving any kind of suggestions, bug reports, requests for features or wishes for improvements. What's the use of having them up here then? Endorsements? Download count? While I appreciate an endorsement as a sign for someone liked what I did, their actual number is of no relevance to me, and download counts alone is of no use, if there's no feedback coming from any of those downloaders. It's actually rather "disheartening" sometimes having that many downloads but none of them giving me the feedback I'm longing for! Hell, I'm even welcoming the random help requests when someone's in trouble getting "the requirements" working again, as this is at least "some" form of feedback!

 

Call me naive, or silly, but I strongly doubt I'm the only one thinking that way.

[Keirgarth]

I have always been of the mindset that if constructive criticism is needed, a pm would suffice for it. Requests for additions on the other hand, I don't mind making public as those requests might get others wanting it as well, showing the author that there might be more that he can accomplish with his mod and it would be appreciated by a few of the users. I do however hold back on the praise, though I do appreciate the work that goes into mods, I offer praise for exceptional work and dedication rather than for every single mod I download and use, and there are quite a few hehe.

 

Unfortunately, as has already been expressed, the internet with it's near total anonymity brings out the worst in quite a number of people.

[Vagrant0]

  On 11/27/2011 at 4:33 PM, OnlyOneWing said:

I think this may be because the border line between constructive criticism and bashing is invisible. Both seem to be frowned upon by staff.

No, it's pretty clear and visible:

 

If the comment contains nothing other than insults directed toward the mod author, it isn't constructive, it's just criticism.

 

If the comment mentions everything that is wrong with the mod, without mentioning what is right, it's just criticism.

 

If the comment is rude, even if it offers suggestions for improvement. It's still not very constructive.

 

If the comment just tells the author everything the user expects from the mod, ignoring everything that is in the mod, acting like they deserve their wishes acknowledged, it's just rude.

 

 

Most of the comments we ban for don't have any gray area. The user simply went to the mod, decided that they didn't like the mod for whatever reason (usually because it's something they dislike about the overall theme of the mod), then decided to state their hatred for the content, and the person who made it. Or they're just strings of insults with no clear target.

 

If a comment contains some redeeming bit of information, it is usually kept as is, or has some of the more inflammatory parts taken out with a message to the user who posted it. It could also be removed entirely, but only at the request of the mod uploader.

 

If a comment is relatively light on any insulting, but doesn't contain any praise, it's a first offense, and it was reported, it will usually just be removed and the user reminded of site rules.

 

 

For trolling, we can usually tell when someone is commenting on a mod that is something they would normally like or not by the way the comment is posted. People who are, for example, obvious haters of MLP or nudity mods, are not the sort who would use those mods, so their opinions are often only negative and often only posted because the mod was something they want to troll. These sorts are banned as well. If you aren't part of the audience for a given mod, your opinion usually isn't wanted since there is rarely anything worthwhile you could say about that mod that wasn't dipped in hatred and encrusted with ignorance.

[OnlyOneWing]

I guess that's true. We don't want a bunch of youtube style commentators... regardless of how funny it may be. But still, feedback should be encouraged some how. At least rating files would be nice...the whole endorsement thing is confusing.... It's like a hundred people download a file, no one endorses it or leaves any feedback. Edited November 28, 2011 by OnlyOneWing

[Pushkatu]

  On 11/28/2011 at 3:38 AM, OnlyOneWing said:

I guess that's true. We don't want a bunch of youtube style commentators... regardless of how funny it may be. But still, feedback should be encouraged some how. At least rating files would be nice...the whole endorsement thing is confusing.... It's like a hundred people download a file, no one endorses it or leaves any feedback.

 

Same thing can happen with ratings, 100 people download, no one bothers to rate and comment, it's just the way it is. The vast majority of people never even posts. If you take a look at some of the most downloaded mods uploaded on tesnexus, mods like Unofficial Oblivion patch, Deadly Reflex and Midas magic, you'll see that they have over 300.000 or more unique downloads, yet only 1000-2000 endorsements.

 

Nexus sites had a rating system before and it was replaced with endorsements, simply because it was much more easier to abuse it. Now, you either like a mod and have the option to endorse it, or you don't and you move on.

[Thandal]

  On 11/28/2011 at 12:53 PM, Pushkatu said:

... Nexus sites had a rating system before and it was replaced with endorsements, simply because it was much more easier harder to abuse it. Now, you either like a mod and have the option to endorse it, or you don't and you move on.

Fixed that for ya' :thumbsup: