If Sarah Lyons was in Fallout 4

[Perraine]

 

Well, one theory is that Casdin actually did orchestrate the demise of Sarah, and perhaps even her father and maybe a few of the other possible candidates such as Star Paladin Cross fer instance.

 

Lets' face it, they didn't exactly come across as "good guys" at the end of Operation Anchorage. They pretty much behaved, just as Maxim (and the rest of the BOS bucket heads) do now I just can't bring myself to enjoy playing the BOS path in FO4, they are all just such a bunch of arrogant, condescending a$$holes.

 

I didn't mind the BOS in FO:NV, they were arrogant, and standoffish, but they were open-ish to outsiders, and they certainly weren't the baby murderers that Bugthesda has turned them into

Or you know, Lyons died because he was an old man and Sarah died in a battle against super mutants. I don't get this obsession with thinking "it's some major conspiracy!" for Maxson to take over. It makes little sense.

 

Christ, No-Bark's conspiracy theories make more sense.

 

I didn't say, and don't believe it's "some major conspiracy" ... However the Outcats proved they were pretty much all complete a$$holes in FO:3 and especially with Operation Anchorage, and Maxson and most of his crew are now also roughly at the same level of "a$$holeness". I dislike what Bugthesda have tuned them into, and it isn't at all far fetched that Casdin and his ilk could very well have orchestrated a "hostile" and 'Covert" takeover of the Eastern BoS and imposed their ideology.

[CiderMuffin]

 

 

Well, one theory is that Casdin actually did orchestrate the demise of Sarah, and perhaps even her father and maybe a few of the other possible candidates such as Star Paladin Cross fer instance.

 

Lets' face it, they didn't exactly come across as "good guys" at the end of Operation Anchorage. They pretty much behaved, just as Maxim (and the rest of the BOS bucket heads) do now I just can't bring myself to enjoy playing the BOS path in FO4, they are all just such a bunch of arrogant, condescending a$$holes.

 

I didn't mind the BOS in FO:NV, they were arrogant, and standoffish, but they were open-ish to outsiders, and they certainly weren't the baby murderers that Bugthesda has turned them into

Or you know, Lyons died because he was an old man and Sarah died in a battle against super mutants. I don't get this obsession with thinking "it's some major conspiracy!" for Maxson to take over. It makes little sense.

 

Christ, No-Bark's conspiracy theories make more sense.

 

I didn't say, and don't believe it's "some major conspiracy" ... However the Outcats proved they were pretty much all complete a$$holes in FO:3 and especially with Operation Anchorage, and Maxson and most of his crew are now also roughly at the same level of "a$$holeness". I dislike what Bugthesda have tuned them into, and it isn't at all far fetched that Casdin and his ilk could very well have orchestrated a "hostile" and 'Covert" takeover of the Eastern BoS and imposed their ideology.

 

Except it is farfetched. How would they get in a position to kill Lyons? They were exiles, they wouldn't be able to get to the citadel and for all purposes they were fine just doing their own thing. Sarah died in combat in D.C.

 

If the Outcasts did do it wouldn't they have launched an all out attack? There is no BoS-outcast war mentioned anywhere, the Outcasts rejoined because Maxson promised a renewal of the BoS's original mission of finding tech which was the reason why they broke off in the first place because to Elder Lyons the idea of finding lost tech and information should be punishment detail. The BoS in Fallout 4 is not like the outcasts, it's a combination of the original BoS ideals and Lyon's idea of helping people, which the ECBoS under Maxson does. It's basically the same as taking chocolate and mixing it with vanilla, you get the best of both.

 

There was no "covert takeover" and there is clearly no implication of there being one. It's just another baseless conspiracy theory with literally no shred of evidence people push because they have to make some bad point.

 

People die, that's what happens. Whether it's old age or in combat in a heavily war-torn area. People will die, it's simple as that.

Edited August 24, 2016 by CiderMuffin

[charwo]

 

 

 

Well, one theory is that Casdin actually did orchestrate the demise of Sarah, and perhaps even her father and maybe a few of the other possible candidates such as Star Paladin Cross fer instance.

 

Lets' face it, they didn't exactly come across as "good guys" at the end of Operation Anchorage. They pretty much behaved, just as Maxim (and the rest of the BOS bucket heads) do now I just can't bring myself to enjoy playing the BOS path in FO4, they are all just such a bunch of arrogant, condescending a$$holes.

 

I didn't mind the BOS in FO:NV, they were arrogant, and standoffish, but they were open-ish to outsiders, and they certainly weren't the baby murderers that Bugthesda has turned them into

Or you know, Lyons died because he was an old man and Sarah died in a battle against super mutants. I don't get this obsession with thinking "it's some major conspiracy!" for Maxson to take over. It makes little sense.

 

Christ, No-Bark's conspiracy theories make more sense.

 

I didn't say, and don't believe it's "some major conspiracy" ... However the Outcats proved they were pretty much all complete a$$holes in FO:3 and especially with Operation Anchorage, and Maxson and most of his crew are now also roughly at the same level of "a$$holeness". I dislike what Bugthesda have tuned them into, and it isn't at all far fetched that Casdin and his ilk could very well have orchestrated a "hostile" and 'Covert" takeover of the Eastern BoS and imposed their ideology.

 

Except it is farfetched. How would they get in a position to kill Lyons? They were exiles, they wouldn't be able to get to the citadel and for all purposes they were fine just doing their own thing. Sarah died in combat in D.C.

 

If the Outcasts did do it wouldn't they have launched an all out attack? There is no BoS-outcast war mentioned anywhere, the Outcasts rejoined because Maxson promised a renewal of the BoS's original mission of finding tech which was the reason why they broke off in the first place because to Elder Lyons the idea of finding lost tech and information should be punishment detail. The BoS in Fallout 4 is not like the outcasts, it's a combination of the original BoS ideals and Lyon's idea of helping people, which the ECBoS under Maxson does. It's basically the same as taking chocolate and mixing it with vanilla, you get the best of both.

 

There was no "covert takeover" and there is clearly no implication of there being one. It's just another baseless conspiracy theory with literally no shred of evidence people push because they have to make some bad point.

 

People die, that's what happens. Whether it's old age or in combat in a heavily war-torn area. People will die, it's simple as that.

 

 

It's not far fetched at all. There was a lot of Outcast sympathizers in the Brotherhood, and it was basically Owen Lyon's force of will that kept them on the Paladin side of things. The Outcasts wouldn't attack Sarah Lyons directly, because what they want it reconsiliation on their terms, which is in fact what they got. Criminal conspiracies and coups happen all the time, as do convenient 'accidents.'

 

From 2 Samuel 11 14-17

¹⁴ In the morning it happened that David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah. ¹⁵ And he wrote in the letter, saying, “Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retreat from him, that he may be struck down and die.” ¹⁶ So it was, while Joab besieged the city, that he assigned Uriah to a place where he knew there were valiant men. ¹⁷ Then the men of the city came out and fought with Joab. And some of the people of the servants of David fell; and Uriah the Hittite died also.

[CiderMuffin]

 

 

 

 

Well, one theory is that Casdin actually did orchestrate the demise of Sarah, and perhaps even her father and maybe a few of the other possible candidates such as Star Paladin Cross fer instance.

 

Lets' face it, they didn't exactly come across as "good guys" at the end of Operation Anchorage. They pretty much behaved, just as Maxim (and the rest of the BOS bucket heads) do now I just can't bring myself to enjoy playing the BOS path in FO4, they are all just such a bunch of arrogant, condescending a$$holes.

 

I didn't mind the BOS in FO:NV, they were arrogant, and standoffish, but they were open-ish to outsiders, and they certainly weren't the baby murderers that Bugthesda has turned them into

Or you know, Lyons died because he was an old man and Sarah died in a battle against super mutants. I don't get this obsession with thinking "it's some major conspiracy!" for Maxson to take over. It makes little sense.

 

Christ, No-Bark's conspiracy theories make more sense.

 

I didn't say, and don't believe it's "some major conspiracy" ... However the Outcats proved they were pretty much all complete a$$holes in FO:3 and especially with Operation Anchorage, and Maxson and most of his crew are now also roughly at the same level of "a$$holeness". I dislike what Bugthesda have tuned them into, and it isn't at all far fetched that Casdin and his ilk could very well have orchestrated a "hostile" and 'Covert" takeover of the Eastern BoS and imposed their ideology.

 

Except it is farfetched. How would they get in a position to kill Lyons? They were exiles, they wouldn't be able to get to the citadel and for all purposes they were fine just doing their own thing. Sarah died in combat in D.C.

 

If the Outcasts did do it wouldn't they have launched an all out attack? There is no BoS-outcast war mentioned anywhere, the Outcasts rejoined because Maxson promised a renewal of the BoS's original mission of finding tech which was the reason why they broke off in the first place because to Elder Lyons the idea of finding lost tech and information should be punishment detail. The BoS in Fallout 4 is not like the outcasts, it's a combination of the original BoS ideals and Lyon's idea of helping people, which the ECBoS under Maxson does. It's basically the same as taking chocolate and mixing it with vanilla, you get the best of both.

 

There was no "covert takeover" and there is clearly no implication of there being one. It's just another baseless conspiracy theory with literally no shred of evidence people push because they have to make some bad point.

 

People die, that's what happens. Whether it's old age or in combat in a heavily war-torn area. People will die, it's simple as that.

 

It's not far fetched at all. There was a lot of Outcast sympathizers in the Brotherhood, and it was basically Owen Lyon's force of will that kept them on the Paladin side of things. The Outcasts wouldn't attack Sarah Lyons directly, because what they want it reconsiliation on their terms, which is in fact what they got. Criminal conspiracies and coups happen all the time, as do convenient 'accidents.'

 

From 2 Samuel 11 14-17

¹⁴ In the morning it happened that David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah. ¹⁵ And he wrote in the letter, saying, “Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retreat from him, that he may be struck down and die.” ¹⁶ So it was, while Joab besieged the city, that he assigned Uriah to a place where he knew there were valiant men. ¹⁷ Then the men of the city came out and fought with Joab. And some of the people of the servants of David fell; and Uriah the Hittite died also.

 

Except it is farfetched because again, they would have no way to actually kill Lyons and no there is no evidence in Fallout 3 of there being Outcast sympathizers. There was no covert takeover, the outcasts returned to the fold because Maxson promised to renewal the process of finding tech which was the real reason why the outcasts left hence why Maxson's ECBoS still recruits outsiders and helps protect caravans and settlements by attacking dens of hostile forces even if there is no tech value in them. Again, it's nothing but a straw grasping conspiracy theory to make some bad point because people are angry the BoS aren't white knight society again. There is literally not a shred of evidence of a coup or a conspiracy by the outcasts, if there was you may have something to go on but you don't so the conspiracy theory is baseless claims.

 

There was literally no indication the outcasts even considered attacking the BoS to take back control. There were no plans for an attack and they were doing what they wanted. They went out to research and discover new tech until the west coast sent word that what they were doing was the right direction. Again, it's a half-assed thought up conspiracy theory in every way.

Edited August 26, 2016 by CiderMuffin

[Perraine]

Actually there are several dialogues from BoS knights in the Citadel in FO:3 that proclaim them to be sympathizers with Casdin and the Outcasts ... Also the Outcasts and BoS were at war with each other, and attacked each other on sight. So yes actually it IS feasible that the Outcasts facilitated Sarah's death, NO ONE has said that they attacked the Citadel, or that a member of the Outcasts personally pulled the trigger on Sarah, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have helped arrange a "warm welcome" for her on a patrol for instance.

 

So please stop trying to make the new BoS under Maxson seem to be anything other than baby killing, xenophobic, arrogant, condescending a$$holes. I didn't make them into that, Bugthesda did, If it smells like a piece of excrement, and looks like a piece of excrement, it probably is a piece of s**t!

[SignorNessuno]

Well, one theory is that Casdin actually did orchestrate the demise of Sarah, and perhaps even her father and maybe a few of the other possible candidates such as Star Paladin Cross fer instance.

 

Lets' face it, they didn't exactly come across as "good guys" at the end of Operation Anchorage. They pretty much behaved, just as Maxim (and the rest of the BOS bucket heads) do now I just can't bring myself to enjoy playing the BOS path in FO4, they are all just such a bunch of arrogant, condescending a$$holes.

 

I didn't mind the BOS in FO:NV, they were arrogant, and standoffish, but they were open-ish to outsiders, and they certainly weren't the baby murderers that Bugthesda has turned them into

what if scribe rothchild take part on the conspiracy, for losing the only high tech weapon that the brotherhood got in all their life? I mean the loosing of Liberty Prime during the events of Broken Steel.

[charwo]

Actually there are several dialogues from BoS knights in the Citadel in FO:3 that proclaim them to be sympathizers with Casdin and the Outcasts ... Also the Outcasts and BoS were at war with each other, and attacked each other on sight. So yes actually it IS feasible that the Outcasts facilitated Sarah's death, NO ONE has said that they attacked the Citadel, or that a member of the Outcasts personally pulled the trigger on Sarah, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have helped arrange a "warm welcome" for her on a patrol for instance.

 

So please stop trying to make the new BoS under Maxson seem to be anything other than baby killing, xenophobic, arrogant, condescending a$$holes. I didn't make them into that, Bugthesda did, If it smells like a piece of excrement, and looks like a piece of excrement, it probably is a piece of s**t!

 

Peraine, where does the Maxon BoS kill children? I'm not saying that they wouldn't; Maxon's a zeslot and zealots are capable of anything, I just don't actually see them doing it. Even when they invade the Institute they are shooting the adults on sight but I never say them targeting the children.

[Perraine]

Well, it's inferred really, from Maxson's almost demonic obsession with butchering ANYONE who is even remotely associated with the Institute or Synths. Someone l like that (rename him to Captain Ahab) wouldn't quibble about killing children. But you are correct we don't actually "see" any child deaths in FO:4, But that is more a design decision from Bugthesda than an admission that they don't kill children.

 

The funny part, is that he doesn't say a thing about Shaun, or Curie. Another example of Bugtheda story telling ... <insert Ron Perlman voiceover> " Bugthesda ... Bugthesda never changes"

[CiderMuffin]

The bias is real. There is literally no mention of any Outcast attack on the citadel nor any other kind of combat. The BoS aren't "baby killing" and the arrogance and xenophobia were always a key part of the BoS, even Lyons BoS had it.

 

Maybe you should spend time reading stuff up before making bullcrap up. Seriously, if you can't come up with an actual argument and go the route of "Everything I say is correct and just because we don't see doesn't mean it doesn't happen" maybe you're not suited for this discussion.

Edited August 27, 2016 by CiderMuffin

[charwo]

The bias is real. There is literally no mention of any Outcast attack on the citadel nor any other kind of combat. The BoS aren't "baby killing" and the arrogance and xenophobia were always a key part of the BoS, even Lyons BoS had it.

 

Maybe you should spend time reading stuff up before making bullcrap up. Seriously, if you can't come up with an actual argument and go the route of "Everything I say is correct and just because we don't see doesn't mean it doesn't happen" maybe you're not suited for this discussion.

 

The Outcasts would never attack the Citedel directly. It's too heavily defended and dust ups aside, the Outcasts and Lyons' mostly ignore each other. The only I've ever seen them fight is if you dismiss Star Paladin Cross in front of Outcasts.

 

There's a difference between a direct attack and a conspiracy and a coup. I'm saying a conspiracy and coup are very likely. First most of the old guard would be against Lyon's vision but take orders anyway. Only a true Maverick or believer, Casdin is probably the latter, would dare to try and rebel, and I'm sure Lyon's decision to let them leave voluntarily won him no respect in an organization like the BoS. And yes there were a LOT of Outcast Sympathizers, Scribe Yearling comes to mind but there are other in overheard conversation. The Brotherhood rank and file are NOT happy being defenders of rock banging locals, this goes against all the ideals they were brought up with. The notion that Sarah Lyons was assassinated, even if it was raiders or supermutants that landed the killing blow, makes no difference. Because, if there was a conspiracy, Sarah Lyons had to without question die in battle. It's all really too convenient for an Elder to die in battle. When Sarah Lyons was number one troubleshooter, she was putting her life on the line everyday. That's not what Elders get paid for..

 

To not acknowledge the very suspicious manner of Lyon's death is to ignore the least subtle thing Bethesda has ever meant to be subtle about. It could be that' it was just a tragedy, but considering the enemies she would have made, and what they stood to gain from her death, this is no case closed affair. This is an open question, something Bethesda itself meant it to be.