SkyNet - Co-Op Gameplay (Theory and potential structure)

[jackalhead]

If you can actually pull this off and allow multiple people in the game of Skyrim to play online together and have it run decently, I'll be both amused and very surprised.

[hipolipolopigus]

If you can actually pull this off and allow multiple people in the game of Skyrim to play online together and have it run decently, I'll be both amused and very surprised.

Not if. When :happy:

[seventy7]

that's the kind of attitude that gets things done.

props to you good sir. :thumbsup:

 

i wish you luck in this endeavor, as most undoubtedly

i'll be one of the players that will look forward to this co-op gameplay.

 

was just wondering about quest flags:

 

let's say you'll have a party of 3: x,y, and z.

x,y, completes a major questline such as the civil war... which changes

things for the entire gameworld, while z was picking snowberries

outside riverwood or something. z haven't picked a side in the war yet.

 

will z's quests be now affected by what x and y did? like how some quests

are modified depending on which side you chose? or how NPCs change

locations due to this?

 

.......

 

 

not a programmer either, but i would love to help in any testing/ bug checking

you might have. :)

Edited December 1, 2011 by seventy7

[hipolipolopigus]

that's the kind of attitude that gets things done.

props to you good sir. :thumbsup:

 

i wish you luck in this endeavor, as most undoubtedly

i'll be one of the players that will look forward to this co-op gameplay.

 

was just wondering about quest flags:

 

let's say you'll have a party of 3: x,y, and z.

x,y, completes a major questline such as the civil war... which changes

things for the entire gameworld, while z was picking snowberries

outside riverwood or something. z haven't picked a side in the war yet.

 

will z's quests be now affected by what x and y did? like how some quests

are modified depending on which side you chose? or how NPCs change

locations due to this?

 

.......

 

 

not a programmer either, but i would love to help in any testing/ bug checking

you might have. :)

Thanks :happy:

 

The game world will be determined by the server, this should reduce the complications on that front. All the clients will determine is how they appear. Since this is going to require hefty core mods, saves will be flagged as requiring our data (Think back to what happened if you disabled a mod back in Oblivion). Thinking about this, the only real option is some kind of profile system (Like many character managers, including my own). This way you will be able to have the same character as two versions; Co-Op and Single-Player. Client Co-Op data will not be saved (Gotta work that out...), only referenced. I hope this is making sense :sweat: I've been up for days so I can't tell any more :dance:

 

Again, no need top worry about being a programmer. When the time comes, I'll let people know (Most likely doing a closed-beta at first to limit the initial amount of duplicate bug reports). I'll include a simple logging system that will tell us exactly where the problem is so all the end-users need to do is send it :thumbsup:

 

 

Now I'm off to sleep. For a long time. See you all in a bit :happy:

Edited December 2, 2011 by hipolipolopigus

[BlackRL]

@hipolipolopigus

 

Congrats on your initiative!

 

I'm no programmer (I've only done some mods/patches to a soccer game) but I have some ideas that might help:

 

-Keep it simple, just co-op

-We already play with NPC's, couldn't you try a way to summon a friend to be that said NPC? A way to exploit this?

-Items and gold just act like they act right now, each character has their own list

-How can the client have their own stuff? Simple, he can collect it from loot or the host can buy then give to him

-One host, one save. Host invites client, client plays in host save/world

-Host controls everything, dialogs, quests, etc, client can see the dialog

-Client has the same level of the host, if host levels up client levels up, just to keep it simple, this could be improved in future releases if you have the time. If possible, client can choose where to put perks

-Remove the pause when accessing menus, this would make things more difficult and would "indirectly" balance the game for 2 players. Both can access menus but the action continues

 

How would people understand each other? Just use one of the millions of voice programs out there.

 

I think this mercenary/companion co-op mode will please everybody, because the game already does this, we can have a NPC character (sometimes it's mandatory) and because the impact in the story/immersion would be..... ZERO.

 

My experience tells me that the most important things is KEEP IT SIMPLE, the more complicated is your project the bigger is the possibility to fail, better to have a simple working mode then evolve it than have a complicated and buggy one that needs years to be released or will never be.

 

I hope I've helped and I really hope you can do something like this, may the force be with you! :)

You don't need to be a programmer to help :happy: You've shown that :thumbsup: Let's address that list...

• MMOs are just thousands of people doing Co-Op. If we had the hardware for a dedicated server and staff to maintain it (All for free :P) I would Definitely love to work on that. But we don't, so a few of us fans playing in small groups (Which is what Parties and bands of menacing bandits really are, right?)
  
• I referred to an idea that I dubbed the "Mannequin System" a few posts back that addresses this :happy:
  
• Possible to exploit easily, though it may be feasible to ignore certain exploits the prevention of which would detract time and attention away from other things
  
• Again, a few posts back :P Client sends a request to the server which is read as "Player [x] looting Object [y] from Corpse/Chest [z]" and the server will do a check to make sure it's still available, then send the appropriate response
  
• Feasible as an option. Seems like the Saints Row The Third system (Which works quite well for 2p Co-Op)
  
• This goes back to the Mannequin system again. The clients are effectively controlled Semi-NPCs that can interact with select NPCs (Shopkeepers, ETC)
  
• Could be an option. Could also implement an entirely new "Party Leveling" mechanic which requires each party member to have a certain percentage of the level-up (2 players = 50% each, 4 = 25% each, 10 = 10% each). May also implement special party tree for party abilities (Mass party heal, wards etc)
  
• Would prefer to not remove it. Could implement a system whereby the pause menu shows but the game still runs (Again, Saints Row The Third Co-Op. Admittedly, not the pause menu (Game menu like the Map). The pause menu pauses both client and server, giving the server the option to kick the client)
  
• Mass VOIP programs like Ventrillo already exist, no need to make one from scratch. Could look at embedding Ventrillo support.
  

 

Mhm, I'm glad you like the idea :happy: The intent is for it to be simple (Once we get our grubby mits on that accursed CK :dry:). But once it's done I don't intend to leave it. Oh, no. I'm thinking game modes like "Capture the Flag" and "City Defence" (Doing the city raid events with one team attacking and one team defending) :devil:

 

But all in due time. The more people we have working on this, the less relative time it will take (Man-hours will be through the roof, though).

 

Now then... Don't feel like you can't help because you aren't a programmer. If you have a useful mechanic or a suggestion, feel free to submit it and leave the hard work to us! The bytes are all there, we just need to figure out how to play with them properly ;)

 

Thanks for the answer! I'm really looking forward to some kind of co-op!

 

Again, my best advise is to keep it simple, just try to exploit the companion, this alone would be HUGE, forget about more people and mp modes, that's just too big and too difficult, it's impossible without money and a team. Start with this "simple" mode, if it works I'm sure a lot of folks are gonna be impressed and with a bit of luck you might get help and attention from the web.

 

I think you don't need "strong hardware" for the beginning, if there's only 2 people and one is the host, no server is needed except for the 2 PC's involved? Correct? Another thing, not sure if I'm saying something incredible wrong for your standards, but what about Kaillera servers (if servers are needed)?

 

Another important thing, some quests have a mandatory companion (companions quest) or can only be made alone (final quest of main quest), you have to warn people that they can't co-op during this quests and in future releases (if possible) you will include some kind of fix.

 

Think small and simple and you will be big, thanks for reading :)

[Szimitar]

I think the Server would just run Skyrim at a state in which all environment-changing events have already happened. Introducing 'phasing' to the world would completely blow our scope.

 

A more difficlicult question to answer is, what happens to NPCs after death. I'd say they stay dead, but then playing on a "crowded" server could quickly become very annoying when some evil character runs around killing quest NPCs.

 

By the way, since there seem to be a few people interested in this, how about we move it to a private forum? If we actually want to pull this off, a single forum thread will become confusing very fast.

[borgmaster]

I agree. this post came a little late.

 

I would like to help you out with your project as a beta tester and gameplay brainstormer. Once the CK comes out I have a few plans for mods but to help spearhead the co-op mod if it comes out would be a blast.

 

I have no in-depth knowledge of programming itself but as a tester im great for bug finding, if there’s a glitch in the gameplay itself I will find it.

 

As far as gameplay goes I am great for bouncing ideas off of and have some ideas of my own on how this game would work as a co-op game. I know you will have your hands full with just trying to get the multiplayer to work let alone work on the fine tuning of reworking quests and character interactions.

 

Admittedly this project might be overstepping my skills as a novice Modder but as a tester and brainstormer I would be great.

 

 

Some food for thought concerning gameplay.

 

Death: When the player dies in game there will need to be a compensation for that. A few options are available for the gameplay but im sure in the end it will boil down to what is easier to script.

 

· Respawning

o When the player dies he will simply resurrect in a city or preset graveyard with only some ragged cloths.

o Respawns as above but with a hit to his stats, as if he was in prison. This could be ignored by a resurrection spell from an ally.

o Respawns with all of his gear in the nearest city or tavern.

 

 

 

Leveling: As the project continues there will be a need to decide on balancing player levels. Will they let a player level up by himself or will the whole team need to find a balance.

 

· Levels Shared

o All players work from a shared exp bar. Each player could only fill up the bar partially to prevent a single player from forcing a level up by training while the others are only just leveling up a skill.

· Levels separate

o Each player levels up individually as normal and all the dungeons would be set by the first person to enter them. This has a possibility of imbalance as a level 1 player could end up in a level 20 dungeon.

[hipolipolopigus]

Just woke up... Here goes!

 

Thanks for the answer! I'm really looking forward to some kind of co-op!

 

Again, my best advise is to keep it simple, just try to exploit the companion, this alone would be HUGE, forget about more people and mp modes, that's just too big and too difficult, it's impossible without money and a team. Start with this "simple" mode, if it works I'm sure a lot of folks are gonna be impressed and with a bit of luck you might get help and attention from the web.

 

I think you don't need "strong hardware" for the beginning, if there's only 2 people and one is the host, no server is needed except for the 2 PC's involved? Correct? Another thing, not sure if I'm saying something incredible wrong for your standards, but what about Kaillera servers (if servers are needed)?

 

Another important thing, some quests have a mandatory companion (companions quest) or can only be made alone (final quest of main quest), you have to warn people that they can't co-op during this quests and in future releases (if possible) you will include some kind of fix.

 

Think small and simple and you will be big, thanks for reading :)

It's not difficult to get more than a couple of users on a server. What really counts is the resource consumption.The system for getting 3 players on would be the exact same as the system for getting 600 players on (Although 2p Co-Op could be simpler, the only difference is iteration).

 

Well, yes and no. In theory, this shouldn't consume much in the way of resources, it depends on how it's designed. Bear in mind that this hardly has any code behind it at all and probably won't have anything for a while (We need the CK for the good hooks unless the SKSE do some amazing magical stuffs!).

 

There's no reason why they can't go along on the quests, they won't be recognized as companions in the game. Just loose, semi-NPC mannequin puppets. That's where the core-logic and content peeps come in.

 

You can only go so far with small and simple. The fact that I've even started this has literally Condemned me and my alias for life if this falls over. So guess what? This isn't going away, this is happening. It may take a damned long time, but it is happening.

 

I think the Server would just run Skyrim at a state in which all environment-changing events have already happened. Introducing 'phasing' to the world would completely blow our scope.

 

A more difficlicult question to answer is, what happens to NPCs after death. I'd say they stay dead, but then playing on a "crowded" server could quickly become very annoying when some evil character runs around killing quest NPCs.

 

By the way, since there seem to be a few people interested in this, how about we move it to a private forum? If we actually want to pull this off, a single forum thread will become confusing very fast.

That is an idea, but some users may find it boring. We could use that system for early testing and then work things in slowly... We'll see, we need that CK!

 

Skyrim has its' own "Garbage Collection" system which (Is still failing, corpses are supposed to go away after a few in-game days...) could be utilized (Even hooked on its' own thread). Essential NPCs will remain essential, so no real worry about the kiling everything problem :P

 

I'll set up a forum on my host and post it on the front, keep an eye out!

 

I agree. this post came a little late.

 

I would like to help you out with your project as a beta tester and gameplay brainstormer. Once the CK comes out I have a few plans for mods but to help spearhead the co-op mod if it comes out would be a blast.

 

I have no in-depth knowledge of programming itself but as a tester im great for bug finding, if there’s a glitch in the gameplay itself I will find it.

 

As far as gameplay goes I am great for bouncing ideas off of and have some ideas of my own on how this game would work as a co-op game. I know you will have your hands full with just trying to get the multiplayer to work let alone work on the fine tuning of reworking quests and character interactions.

 

Admittedly this project might be overstepping my skills as a novice Modder but as a tester and brainstormer I would be great.

 

 

Some food for thought concerning gameplay.

 

Death: When the player dies in game there will need to be a compensation for that. A few options are available for the gameplay but im sure in the end it will boil down to what is easier to script.

 

· Respawning

o When the player dies he will simply resurrect in a city or preset graveyard with only some ragged cloths.

o Respawns as above but with a hit to his stats, as if he was in prison. This could be ignored by a resurrection spell from an ally.

o Respawns with all of his gear in the nearest city or tavern.

 

 

 

Leveling: As the project continues there will be a need to decide on balancing player levels. Will they let a player level up by himself or will the whole team need to find a balance.

 

· Levels Shared

o All players work from a shared exp bar. Each player could only fill up the bar partially to prevent a single player from forcing a level up by training while the others are only just leveling up a skill.

· Levels separate

o Each player levels up individually as normal and all the dungeons would be set by the first person to enter them. This has a possibility of imbalance as a level 1 player could end up in a level 20 dungeon.

The more brainstormers and debuggers we get, the better! :happy:

 

Regarding death, we could just do a Minecraft-style system and be all "Nope. You died. Go pick up all of your gear and try again. Oh, there's a dragon in the way? Diddums!" :P

 

Respawning;

• I was thinking about respawning outside of the nearest hold capital's main gate or the nearest known town's inn (Perhaps in bed, "recovering"?).
  
• I do like that stat hit idea a lot... :happy:
  

 

I mentioned a few posts back about splitting the leveling requirements (2 = 50% each, 4 = 25% each, 10 = 10% each etc)... It's not impossible (Nothing is when it comes to programming! Some things are just infinitely difficult :sweat:)

 

=============================================

Heh, long post is long... I would have split the responses if it weren't for the 60s post limit :dry:) I'll start setting up some forum software on my host and put it on the front page... Ladies and gentlemen, this is going to be AWESOME.

[WGSXFrank]

If and when you guys can make this happen, I'll be first in line to playtest it. I have very little knowledge of C++ (as I dabble in iOS app development sometimes) but not nearly enough to actually work with it fluently. However, I've done work as a professional game tester.

 

Plus, the only reason I stopped playing Oblivion when I did was due to my want of playing co-op with a friend. I'm nowhere near bored of skyrim. With the power of the console, the Creation Kit (when it is released) and a functional multiplayer mod, I'll be playing this game for years.

 

Good luck! I can't wait to see what you come up with!

[hipolipolopigus]

If and when you guys can make this happen, I'll be first in line to playtest it. I have very little knowledge of C++ (as I dabble in iOS app development sometimes) but not nearly enough to actually work with it fluently. However, I've done work as a professional game tester.

 

Plus, the only reason I stopped playing Oblivion when I did was due to my want of playing co-op with a friend. I'm nowhere near bored of skyrim. With the power of the console, the Creation Kit (when it is released) and a functional multiplayer mod, I'll be playing this game for years.

 

Good luck! I can't wait to see what you come up with!

Thanks for the support :happy: I'll keep you in mind for the first closed-public-testing group :laugh: The first closed-testing group, however, would likely be the core-logic and core-content modders. They've got one of the most difficult jobs to do, after all!