LE Better Cities?

[Thoragoros]

I like the cities, too but think they are small as 'cities.' Too bad they didn't make them on the scale Assassin's creed made them. A quick fix would be to add a few peasants and huts per farm.

 

I actually was disappointed with the cities in general, except for Solititude. They all felt very, very small, and very 'fake' in some ways. I found that they felt more like they were built around how they player would use them rather than as actual/believable cities.

 

I mean, in Oblivion I found the cities to be much more believable, whereas Skyrim, I just felt they were kind of meh.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Thoragoros

[AssyMcGee]

I like the cities, too but think they are small as 'cities.' Too bad they didn't make them on the scale Assassin's creed made them. A quick fix would be to add a few peasants and huts per farm.

 

I actually was disappointed with the cities in general, except for Solititude. They all felt very, very small, and very 'fake' in some ways. I found that they felt more like they were built around how they player would use them rather than as actual/believable cities.

 

I mean, in Oblivion I found the cities to be much more believable, whereas Skyrim, I just felt they were kind of meh.

 

 

I know what you mean when you say the cities feel fake. In Whiterun for example the ground looks plasticy. The grass mainly. I think it's because a lot of the ground in the cities are made up of larges meshes. This is all speculation of course. This could prove disappointing come modding season.

 

I don't know if you modded the Shivering Isles at all, but in New Sheoth the ground and streets of the city were just large meshes with holes cut out for the buildings to fit into. I know that's how they built Solitude, just because you can't make an arch with the terrain. So this makes me wonder how many of the buildings are full buildings, or puzzle pieces with missing walls that you aren't supposed to see anyways. If you know what I mean.

 

But it would be great if we could make the cities feel realistic. That's something that bothers me about video games. If it doesn't make sense I get to wrapped up in it and angry with how unrealistic it is. Like Half Life for example, I adore the game, but the layout of Black Mesa makes me mad because it was designed to be a game first, and lab second. Also another good, in fact great example would be Rapture from Bioshock. It has a lot of great art and design elements, but it was designed as a shooter and game first, then a utopian city.

[BadMaker]

I started coming up with some quick concept sketches for how whiteruns walls could be expanded to encompass a greater area. Obviously buildings would be added,maybe more farms and I am thinking the two major farms could be converted into Villa style farms, albeit with a whiterun styling. One thing I did not include is the fact that these walls would largely be ruined, some sections would only be worn down a bit, others repaired with wood and still other areas consisting of gates and barricades instead of solid walls.

 

Anyone have some sort of over-view map? That would be the best. I think I am going to go try and use noclip to get an overview so I can draw out the walls easier.

 

GIANT IMAGES.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/hG1DI.jpg

 

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/pHKCe.jpg

 

[MajikMoshos]

Good job BadMaker. That wall concept makes us see just how much space we have to stuff some more buildings, whiterun style. Actually, we could fit a lot!

[BadMaker]

I am thinking that the inside of the current city needs a major refit first. Like much more density, larger buildings,and taller buildings. Many more street stalls, markets and compounds. The poorer areas of the city need to have a few shacks and poor merchants. The wealthier areas need larger buildings that loom over the street.

 

On the outside, where the newly added parts of the city will go, I picture a few new businesses. Perhaps a place for textiles, denser farms within the walls, a granary area, maybe a district for Orcs similar to the orc strongholds and some other structures.

[AssyMcGee]

Yea that really does make me realize the massive amount of under utilized space around the cities. And Looking at that picture and the massive amount of space in it, we could definitely use more farms out there, and along the main road up to Whiterun proper I think would be the perfect place for some lower class housing and some shops and taverns. The same could be done to Solitude as well. The city could extend down the road into that empty gated area and down to that tower near the stables.

 

With the farms in wall like that, and the different rings going up the hill it reminds me of the layout of Pelennor Fields from the Lord of the Rings. The farms hidden safely behind a wall then the city. I like that idea.

[Aokami]

I started coming up with some quick concept sketches for how whiteruns walls could be expanded to encompass a greater area. Obviously buildings would be added,maybe more farms and I am thinking the two major farms could be converted into Villa style farms, albeit with a whiterun styling. One thing I did not include is the fact that these walls would largely be ruined, some sections would only be worn down a bit, others repaired with wood and still other areas consisting of gates and barricades instead of solid walls.

 

Anyone have some sort of over-view map? That would be the best. I think I am going to go try and use noclip to get an overview so I can draw out the walls easier.

 

GIANT IMAGES.

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/hG1DI.jpg

 

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/pHKCe.jpg

 

 

First of all the wind district is not the district of the poor so no shacks... (merchants and craftsmen may not be wealthy but they have money)

here is my opinion for whiterun pictures...

(Second) as for the pictures the most i could see to be realistic is a palisade made of wood or a low wall made of stone (in between the size of the walls around the farms and the whiterun walls)... it would be problematic if the walls extended too far (this is the inofficial poor district)

so for picture one from the left side okay up to the point where the drawing of the fictional wall is seperated (where the water goes a little towards whiterun) is a big bit of space already

as for picture two the brewery should stay where it is, but should gain some artificial beehives...

As for vanilla whiterun there would definately be some space to squeeze in one or two homes for npc families... (one of which should be a tailoring shop)

 

Cities should not be stretched over too much space... there is a tiny need for balance here.

And dont forget that if everything is enhanced (only) a bit (like inns with a cellar and/or an attic for more rooms (plus with a room with a big tub for washing and a storeroom); farms with more harvestable plants and more animals; meatvendor outside works for a butchery, there is a bakery and a cheese manufactorer building (possibly these 3 could be in the poor district especially the butchery and the cheese manufactorer)) the immersionlevel kicks of immensely

Edited January 13, 2012 by Aokami

[MajikMoshos]

I feel filling Whiterun with shacks and desperate folk is thematically incorrect, it's just not that type of city. Also, the orcs stick to their hold with the few that leave intergrating into any open society, or becoming mercs. I don't think an Orc ghetto would fit the lore? However, some kind of commons house would make sense, a well kept place that several families might share, paying rent, doing communal work. That would fit Whiterun.

Anyway it's bad enough that the vanilla game gives every city a token poor guy. I'd say get rid of the poor guy in Whiterun and move him to Windhelm, change his race to dark elf and maybe remove any dialouge directly pertaining to Whiterun. The gift of charity bonus can still be gained in whiterun, but this time by making a donation at the temple of Kynareth. Perhaps the money goes to the widows of the brave men and women who died defending the western watchtower.

 

If any cities gonna be filled with the Poor it'll Windhelm's grey quarter and docks, as well as The warrens in Markarth. The former is mostly 'minority' races like Dunmer and Argonians, helping to hammer home the Stormcloak's racism, and the latter would point out the desperation and corruption of Markarth. Whiterun has NONE of those things, and so it shouldn't have some crummy poor district. Jarl Balgruuf is a pretty cool guy, he wouldn't stand for that s***.

 

EDIT: I'm a slowpoke with posts, didn't notice Aokami's post. I like the idea of a tailor, and bakery. There's a meat vendor in the vanilla city, brother to the guy who owns the drunken hunstman. Perhaps the outer section can have a place where hunters drop off the raw meat and hides, and this in turn is where Anoriath would pick up his meat from every morning before opening shop in the wind district. Could call it the Whiterun Hunters Hall, but it's only for official licensed hunters and ties in the the Drunken Huntsman in some way. Basically, it'd sell meat and hides. You can also make deliveries to hunter camps in the Hold, as misc quests for small amounts of gold and some quality arrows. After that, apply for a license and you'd be able to turn in pelts for substantial amounts of gold, as well as Enchanted, leveled bows.

Edited January 13, 2012 by MajikMoshos

[amblingalong]

One technique that was useful when doing similar work in Oblivion (specifically Improved Cities and Unique Landscapes) was to integrate multiple, smaller mods; this spread out the workload, allowed things to be released piece-by-piece, and perhaps most importantly it meant that different areas still felt unique.

 

I'm currently planning out a mod which will drastically expand the interiors of the larger structures; I'm going to start with the palaces, then probably the College of Winterhold and Sky Haven temple. I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts, and I'd hope to integrate it with a larger city renovation.

[MajikMoshos]

Yes, that's a good idea. Each city should be its own ESP, to conserve space. Then a single ESP to handle all the little misc quests and Side quests that'll require all the cities to be upgraded. This, of course, comes last, when we're satisfied with the most important part of the project - fleshing out the city. We might as well start with Whiterun since it has the most space, and thus the least headaches and then on to Falkreath (expanding the graveyard a little, streching the city on both sides and then expanding the south-east) while getting some side projects going on with the Palaces (Blue first, seeing as it's the smallest), Markarth's Warrens (Which I'd love to get into), Winterhold's undersea ruins, and the Inns (Mostly Morthal and Falkreath's inns, then the various village taverns). Places like Solitude and Markarth proper would be the hardest, so they should be the last cities to modify.

 

Anyway that's a rough plan, a sort of guideline for how we should go about things. If anyone has anything to add, or feels there's a way to improve the plan, go ahead. It's actually pretty late over here so I'm writing this in half-sleep. :teehee: