Darnoc Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 You've just created a new paradoxon! Congratulations :D !!! Well, there's another paradaxon, which has a very similar meaning than yours, ctogher (I'm not really sure, if I did invent it first, but I surely didn't look it up somewhere, I came to the idea myself). I begin, where Descartes did begin: I tear down the building, I clean the table of everything I believed in and search for something, which is absolutely true and can't be doubted. Now, as Descartes, I can't trust my senses, because the can trick me. I also can't trust my consciousness, because I can't really know, if anything is just a dream. But then Descartes thought that he can't doubt that he is doubting, so he at least mus somehow exist. Now this is, where my thoughts began. Can you really be sure, that you do exist? Perhaps we are just all characters in a great novel somebody is inventing or someone is thinking our existence, our thoughts, our feelings. Or perhaps it is even more complicated, so much complicated that we couldn't even imagine it. So I can doubt everything, even my existence and that anything at all does exist. In the end there's only one thing that we can be sure of: That we can't be sure of anything. But then I can be sure of something: that I can't be sure of anything. But this doesn't work, because there is at least one thing I can be sure of: That I can't be sure of anything. And this also includes that there is perhaps something which we could be sure of, but we just can't be sure of it, because we don't really can be sure of anything at all. So we have an endless paradoxon. Anyone try to solve it :rolleyes: ??? But back to your paradaxon, ctogher. I am saying that every human is a liar and that I am a human. So, if this sentence is true, I am a liar, because I am a human. But when I am a liar, this sentence can't be true, and so I am either not a human or not a liar. When I'm not a liar or not a human, then this sentence is not true, so I am a liar and the sentence would be true again. etc. etc. Now we need someone like the guy who solved the paradoxon of Achilles and the turtle (perhaps you remember this one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltiraaz Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Just because all humans are liars (which they are), it does not mean that you were lying right there. Which would mean that all humans are liars, but do not necessarily tell only lies. point: you can only lie once in your life and be a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctogher Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Just because all humans are liars (which they are), it does not mean that you were lying right there. Which would mean that all humans are liars, but do not necessarily tell only lies. Excellent point! ^_^ However, based in paradox is the exclusion of other possibilities. Unless presented in the statement, surely you cannot introduce further embelishment to support an argument? At that point, the paradox collapses. This is true of any such paradox. If permitted, you could solve any such meme you come across by introducing the vital missing solution, or statement which will provide you with a loophole to solve it. In order to counter this we could change the statement to read, "Humans lie all the time!", which invalidates further embelishments, but doesn't read as effectively.... The problem with this statement is that you are lying regardless of what your personal stance is.... Telling the truth is a lie as well! Thus, regardless of moral high ground, the reader is as much a liar as anyone else... point: you can only lie once in your life and be a liar. Toe! :huh: I'd like you to meet a couple of politicos sometime..... I'm sure this one would have them splitting sides... :lol: In the end there's only one thing that we can be sure of: That we can't be sure of anything. :blink: Noooooooo! not another one!!! Fatal mental exception! Please reinsert universe and try again!!!!! :sick: (...curls into ball and repeats, "we belong dead.... we belong dead....).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnoc Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 @ctogher: when you don't agree with my statement, then prove that I am wrong. Let me prove it to you logically: Everything which is possible to be doubted is not certain. Because we can doubt anything, nothing is certain. And so the only thing which is not certain is that nothing is certain. Or put it another way: Everything that isn't sure 100% can't be taken for granted. Because nothing is assure 100%, nothing can be taken for granted. That means it is our duty as philosophers to search until we find something which is 100% certain or live with the fact that nothing is 100% certain :rolleyes: It isn't even certain that there is perhaps something 100% certain. Of course this is only theoretical, practical I would never believe such a thing, because we must at least assume something to be true, or our lives would be a nightmare, because we could believe nothing at all and humans can't do this. If anyone really believes in this, I only can make "ts..ts..ts, the guy is crazy!" But I just like such theoretical stuff, it's fun to think about such things. Even when it has no practical use at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctogher Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 when you don't agree with my statement, then prove that I am wrong. No disagreement intended :blush: It's just that my mind is feeling a little stretched from trying to reason it through to a conclusion, which is simply not possible.. :huh: Of course this is only theoretical, practical I would never believe such a thing, because we must at least assume something to be true, or our lives would be a nightmare, because we could believe nothing at all and humans can't do this. To make it worse is the possibility that you don't exist, but are merely a collection of filters being used to percieve existince from a severely restricted vantage... But I just like such theoretical stuff, it's fun to think about such things. Even when it has no practical use at all.On the contrary! :o It is exactly this type of seemingly nonsense questioning that has led to some of our greatest discoveries! Remember, "examining the pebble on the beach can tell us a lot about the ocean"...... Perhaps a test would be in order. Let someone present you with something which is "100% certain" and then try applying the rules evident in the paradox to disprove its certainty. Should this fail, the paradox would be proven flawed.... :rolleyes: Any volunteers?..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 But you can't ever satisfy that test. Because no matter what you say, it can always be that this reality is just a dream. Or maybe this post right now is being writen by a chat bot, and the Peregrine you think you know doesn't exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctogher Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Or maybe this post right now is being writen by a chat bot, and the Peregrine you think you know doesn't exist? :blink: I think Peregrine has just vanished in a puff of logic. :lol: By this we can infer that this post was merely a figment of a deranged imagination or simply didn't happen...? But I think it happened because I have knowledge of the event.... :blink: Thus, I offer as proof of existence the following candidates: 1] Knowledge. Not perceived by normal filters, (senses), it must exist and can be said to be '100% certain'. 2] Time. I have knowledge of the past and present. If the past was not real, there would be no knowledge of the event. Thus Time could be '100% certain' Hmmm, this starts to sound very much like, 'I think. Therefore I am'...... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnoc Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 Do you really know? Perhaps everything you think you know is inplanted into you and in reality you don't even think. Or perhaps it is not we who know, it is someone else who invents us. Then this other being would know and not we. But then again perhaps everything is so much different that we not even could think about it. And what is, if nothing at all ever happended, that everything we think to remember is not true at all? (Ever seen Matrix?) Does time really exist? Perhaps our four dimensional universe isn't existing, it is just an imagination of us or someone else. We or the other being has invented time and space, but in reality they don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltiraaz Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 QUOTE (Eltiraaz @ Jan 6 2004, 12:17 AM) point: you can only lie once in your life and be a liar. Toe! I'd like you to meet a couple of politicos sometime..... I'm sure this one would have them splitting sides... I dont know what that means.. but ok... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctogher Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Does time really exist? Perhaps our four dimensional universe isn't existing, it is just an imagination of us or someone else. We or the other being has invented time and space, but in reality they don't exist. Hmm... :huh: That would suggest that a fairly advanced species has taken the time out to create a bundle of paranoia, attach it to some nerve endings, implanted a remote control and then spent the rest of its existince broadcasting illusions at its creation in an attempt to create its greatest masterpiece........... :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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