I will give Ulfric credit

[gsmanners]

I don't know what points were made since then, but killing someone is a duel does not mean it's murder.

 

You can't deny the fact that Ulfric said, "Torygg was merely a message to the other jarls..." Because that motive does in fact make it premeditated murder in the first degree by any civilized definition of murder (political or not). Or do you interpret that admission as something other than a wholehearted endorsement of using murder to further a "good" cause?

[Kamudo]

You can't deny the fact that Ulfric said, "Torygg was merely a message to the other jarls..." Because that motive does in fact make it premeditated murder in the first degree by any civilized definition of murder (political or not). Or do you interpret that admission as something other than a wholehearted endorsement of using murder to further a "good" cause?

 

I'm fairly certain Ulfric's intentions were to kill Torygg in the duel. That doesn't make it murder. "Hey guys, I need to somehow get rid of Torygg, so I can be high king, wat do?" The only logical answer would be to kill the High King put in place by the Empire, by ancient Nordic law, which would include killing him in a duel. If Torygg agrees to a fight to the death, I don't see why everyone needs to get their panties in a twist if the winner of the duel was Ulfric. Also, yes, it was a message to the other Jarls, because it's a statement that says, "Look, Torygg is a false king, and he has been brought down." It's showing the other Jarl's that Ulfric is obeying tradition, that the other Jarl's have seem to forgotten.

[gsmanners]

I'm fairly certain Ulfric's intentions were to kill Torygg in the duel. That doesn't make it murder.

 

*whoosh* Talk about missing the whole point of what I just said.

[imperistan]

I'm fairly certain Ulfric's intentions were to kill Torygg in the duel. That doesn't make it murder.

 

*whoosh* Talk about missing the whole point of what I just said.

 

That still doesn't make it murder.

[magiii]

ulfric is not a fair person and he is not good. he is racist and to some extent (which i dont agree with) is a murderer. but he is a GREAT leader and he CAN lead skyrim to a good future also he cares for the nords. thalmors are not THAT strong to conquer skyrim with its cold climate and nords who know how to fight there so no thalmor threat. and nords were highly offended when thalmor announced worshiping talos is outlawed. so i support ulfric and his cause. i support ulfric as a leader but not as a high king or a person. i know jarls will support him after the war if he wins but i say he should just be jarl of windhelm and not a high king just becuase he is not made to be one.

[Lachdonin]

Ok, well... Since apparently the site problems led to some posts getting deleted, i'll try this again...

 

Murder is a socially subjective concept which can be loosely defined as the unlawful killing of another person. The main qualifiers here are Unlawful and Person both of which are likewise socially dependant. In modern society, it is murder to sacrifice a human being to the gods (because all humans are recognised as people, and divine sacrifice is not considered a lawful reason to kill) but to the Aztecs it was not only acceptable, it was encouraged.

 

Now, in Skyrim, they follow a similar definition of 'person' as we do in the real world, probably because the game wasn't made by anthropologists and thus theres very few differances socially between Skyrim and our world. But i digress, because of this, Ulfrics killing of Torygg was certianly one person killing another. The question then is whether or not it was lawful.

 

Nordic tradition certianly states that to kill in a duel is acceptable. There is no way to argue against that. However, whether or not such duels are socially acceptable is suspect. As a theoretical case study; Canada retained the death sentance for Treason up until 1998, where general capital punishment had been abolished well before. If someone were to be executed in Canada in, say, 1997, there would have been outrage. Thats because, even if it was legal, the mentality was that it's still an unlawful act. When we look at Skyrim, people certianly aren't impressed with Ulfric's killing of Torygg. Several outright condem it, and almost everyone else practically whispers about it as if it were taboo. Thus, we can conclude that while legal, it's not something that is socially acceptable, even to the Nords. Of course, all this shows is that it's status as murder is not concrete one way or the other. While technicly 'legal' it is not considered lawful.

 

Then of course there's the whole point of using the Voice. Users of the Voice are regarded, in Skyrim, with the same suspicion and awe as mages, but without the outright distrust. This can be seen, most clearly, through the opinions regarding the Greybeards. Their detached, secretive mystics, but at the same time revered. The use of the Voice its self is a kind of magic, and despite the religious conotations surrounding it, its still seen as magic by the general public. Straight up magic, we know, is forbidden in Nordic duels. However, i have yet to find any referance which specifcly says the Voice is subject to the same restrictions. Thus, again, we have to look at how the duel is perceived.

 

The main referances from the Duel comes from the rumours spread by the Guards, and (i beleive, but can't be certian at the moment) the court mage in Solitude who was in fact an eye witness. The guards tone clearly reflects a combination of awe and fear when they referance the use of the Voice in the duel, revealing that it's not something that happens with any degree of regularity (then again, we have no indication duels happen that often). The eye witness makes note of Torygg's surprise at the use of a Thu'um in the duel, when it should have been common knowlege that Ulfric has such an ability. As such, we can conclude that, even if it was technicly permitted, it was either uncommon or informally frowned upon. To draw a real world paralelle; in the stereotypical 18th century pistol duel, you could, in acordance with the rules, show up in full armour. It was perfectly permited to do so, but it was viewd as a grave insult if you did (asside from being a bad idea, since those pistols are a pain to aim anyway) and since these were often matters of honor no one would risk such an offence.

 

Which begs the question, if it would be an insult to his honor, why would Ulfric use the shout at all? Politics. Elsif states in no simpler words that, had Ulfric asked, Torygg would have sided with the Stormcloaks. Torygg himself says that he had no chance of beating Ulfric in single combat anyway, so the Shout was jsut overkill. Coupled with Ulfric's blatant statement that Torygg was a message to the other Jarls, its clear that Ulfric was not trying to garner further support, but rather showing off his own personal power in an attempt to cow everyone into submission. This type of desplay is characteristic of Tyrants, and while i admit that tyrants tend to be strong leaders, they are very rarely good ones.

[imperistan]

The thing about that duel is that the facts are massively skewed towards a misunderstanding of what happened. From what I've been able to tell (from talking to absolutely everyone who could say anything about it and removing the clear bias' from all of them), I can tell quite easily that the shout was not used as a tactical move, but nothing more than a flourish, to prove Ulfric as the truer Nord according to the traditions that defined Skyrim in the first place. And this is perfectly acceptable, just as using it tactically would have been. Thu'um has been a rather integral part of Nordic society since it was first gifted to mankind. Any who practice it would be foolish not to display this fact, and especially so during duels. As for the guard's reactions, I attribute this more to the idea that most likely the Thu'um has been slowly dying out by the time the game's events unfold. There was a time when virtually every Nord who could fight knew the voice. Now, only the seldom few. It isn't that hard to see that a man who knows the Voice would inspire awe in those who likely second-guess the validity of that abilities actual existence. (After all, people believed Dragons were just legends, despite the fact that there was substantial evidence to prove otherwise. Its not hard to see that the Voice would come under the same scrutiny)

 

The Imperials and/or Imperial sympathetic would also see the voice as something unusual, and as such would mistake it for something dishonorable when truly it wasn't.

 

I suggest you watch this and understand what's occuring:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp1mzx5O4ao

 

Then come back and look over how the duel went again. You'll see that both duels serve much the same point. To prove one man better than another for X purpose before the eyes of all concerned. In the video, its done before an actual crowd, In Skyrim, the duel was not seen by anyone until the very end, though the point was still made regardless. Ulfric proved he was the better man, the better Nord, and the better King, again according to the very traditions that defined Skyrim and the Nordic race in general. This is the exact point of these sorts of duels. They are not fencing matches, they're battles.

 

And I won't even go into the real-world parallels that explain this even further, other than to say that even the old Norse would have used the Thu'um if they had it during their duels. Norse duels (which we can presume are virtually identical to Nordic customs in Tamriel, as at this point we're seeing direct a parallel between the two societies anyway. In fact the Nords are the one race in the game that do take specifically from their obvious real-world counterpart and in great quantities) were battles in which every option at the warriors disposal were put to use.

 

Whether it was a rock on the ground, a thick stick you took off a tree, or your opponents own sword which he dropped, you used it to defeat and kill your enemy. All was honorable for the point was to defeat your opponent. Not to beat around the bush like fencers do, with specific rules against taking the advantage. But besides, back then Norse duels were fought over much pettier things than who was the proper fit for a King. Back then Norse duels were fought because you delivered a particularly good insult to the other, or because you bested him in battle with a twig, or something else that insulted a man's dignity and often-times honor. So Nordic duels as we've seen them have been quite tame and "honorable."

 

It should also be noted that someone who bases his platform on returning to Nordic tradition that acting like a weak pansy is not going to solidify nor garner support. You don't win over a tribe of barbarians by being a book worm. In the same way, you don't win over Nords who agree with the sentiment of returning to the old Nordic ways by being a milk drinker.

[Lachdonin]

I'm not sure where you;re getting the "It was a flourish" arguement. Care to tell me who you are talking to?

 

The only eye witnesses i know of are the Mage in Solitude, Ulfric, and Torygg. The mage and Torygg both indicate that Ulric used it as an opener to drop Torygg to the ground, and the boy was dead before he could get to his feet. That is a major strategic differance than a simple artistic flourish.

 

Your real world comparison is also one of practicality, rather than one of philosophy as mine were. Through your example you are directly implying that the rules of a duel in Skyrim are the same as what one would expect of a classic Nordic duel. That is, you can use any skill you possess to win. We know for a fact that this is not the case, as Magic is forbidden.

 

Using the voice is also a highly political move, as you yourself alluded to the fact that it is extremely rare. The only living people, asside from Ulfric, who can Shout are the Greybeards. In fact, i think it's safe to say that to learn his single Thu'um Ulfric would have had to have been trained by the Greybeards, which means using the Thu'um in a duel is a violation of the way of the Voice, but thats another arguement. Anyway, by showing his knowlege of the Voice, Ulfric links his own image to that of ancient Nordic kings, while at the same time expressing his own power. Regardless of whether or not it was a disshonorable act, the benefit of historic association, victory and outright fear would have outweighed any minor ambiguity as to its validity in a duel,

[Kyuukei]

Here's my personal take on everything.

 

In my opinion, an independent Skyrim would not fall to the Dominion. By all indications, their armies took a ton of casualities in the later stages of the Great War, and the current situation has them spread very thin logistically, in trying to both rebuild their forces and keep Aldmeri agents in Cyrodiil and Skyrim. An already battle-worn Hammerfell beat them back, and in that case the Dominion didn't even need to cross over enemy territory on foot to get to them. Granted, Hammerfell is more of a naval power, but in order to properly invade Skyrim the Thalmor would have to:

 

A) send an army over territory belonging to either Hammerfell or the Empire

 

B) divert forces from the Empire proper, leaving them open on other fronts

 

It should be noted that the Thalmor do not want a clear victory for the Stormcloaks any more than the Imperials. Regardless of which side wins, the situation in Skyrim ends up stabilizing and the Empire focuses more efforts on reforming its armies in Cyrodiil and High Rock. It's not like Ulfric ever actually intended to fight the whole Dominion all by his lonesome, and that is highly unlikely to be the case. In his victory speech, he actually expresses no problems with leading the proverbial charge of all of Tamriel against the Thalmor; he's not averse to teamwork, he just got sick of the cultural oppression, crackdowns, and continued Thalmor presence in Skyrim.

 

And really, pretty much everyone except Black Marsh and possibly Orsinium have a bone or two to pick with the Thalmor at this point. If the Thalmor want to divert enough resources to build an army sufficient to cross over enemy territory and then scale a rather nasty mountain range to invade a Stormcloak-held Skyrim likely to have been unified in the meantime, that leaves them open to everyone else that they've pissed off - which is nearly everyone. While the Empire was exhausted by the Great War, such a huge tactical opening would likely compensate for any weakness on their part and then some. And even if the other parties involved didn't do anything to aid Skyrim, that isn't a death knell in itself given that, again, a battered Hammerfell drove them off without any Imperial help anyway.

 

As for the whole duel thing, Skyrim's Nords have been known in lore to generally consider the Voice a perfectly viable weapon in combat. Regardless of how much of a curbstomp it was, Ulfric defeated Torygg entirely within the customs of his people, and did so on his own merits and with his own skill. Yes, the Voice counts as a skill, because anyone without Dragon blood has to work their ass off to master even the basics of it. It requires immense discipline and strength of will to use, and has long been both a respected and valid part of Nordic culture for some time. So personally, I'd consider that a difference of experience and skill.

 

As for Torygg himself, all the lore I have read indicates that he more or less inherited the position of High King from his father, and was a political greenhorn. Elisif herself is certainly not an experienced politician, and as far as I know the implication is that she had been running things side-by-side with Torygg for the duration of his tenure as High King. Fact is, he was an inexperienced leader and multiple people have postulated that he was quite thoroughly in the Empire's pocket. Personally, I feel Ulfric should have at least *asked* Torygg about succession in some form or another first, given that according to Elisif Torygg did respect him, but Ulfric explained his reasoning well when asked later and certainly didn't 'cheat' in his duel (note Roggvir's dialogue before his execution - if the Voice itself were illegal in this context surely someone would have refuted him saying Ulfric won fair and square, but nobody even bothered to address his points on this actually being perfectly valid per Nordic culture).

 

Regarding Skyrim as a whole, my main concern in the preparation standpoint is obviously not the whole army thing, but instead how Ulfric plans on keeping people fed - the Empire did indeed provide lots of imports. However, given that he's actually thought things through a fair bit (not to mention Skyrim was obviously self-sufficient pre-Empire, and there's plenty of game to hunt), I feel it is safe to assume he has some plans in line for that. An alliance with Hammerfell would probably help both sides immensely, for instance (if not for food than for other logistics, perhaps in exchange for some of Skyrim's plentiful ore), and there are likely to be a fair few shipping companies that aren't dictated directly by the Empire; Tamriel is a big place.

 

All things considered, I went for the Stormcloaks in my first playthrough and will do so again in future; they certainly aren't as shortsighted as they might seem, and it has been said before that a lot of the accounts of what happened at Markarth have been altered by the Empire for propaganda purposes. Bottom line, if Skyrim, which was not consulted on the terms of the treaty it was forced under at all, feels its culture is being violated and unravelled (very true), frowns upon the Thalmor torture rooms that everyone knows about (that would piss me off as well), and wants to run itself as opposed to staying in an Empire that has abandoned the primary reason they joined in the first place - Talos - then personally I feel they are well within their rights to seek independence.

 

I fully admit that Ulfric's far from perfect - while I don't frown upon his actual dueling ethics, not at least chatting with Torygg diplomatically first did rub me the wrong way - but we can't be 100% certain of how sold out to the Empire he actually was of yet. And, of course, he is generally pretty racist, but the Thalmor are a million times worse in that regard, and Ulfric is nonetheless an equal-opportunity employer. To reiterate what I said before, he personally has no qualms with aligning with the other peoples of Tamriel, so I can't really consider his disregarding your race when you join to be gameplay and story segregation. But regardless, the Stormcloaks seem better to me, all things considered. Ulfric convinced me to join with

, in which it is made very apparent he actually has no lust for power. Despite his flaws, the man's Chaotic Good all the way. Edited February 18, 2012 by Kyuukei

[magiii]

And really, pretty much everyone except Black Marsh and possibly Orsinium have a bone or two to pick with the Thalmor at this point. If the Thalmor want to divert enough resources to build an army sufficient to cross over enemy territory and then scale a rather nasty mountain range to invade a Stormcloak-held Skyrim likely to have been unified in the meantime, that leaves them open to everyone else that they've pissed off - which is nearly everyone.

 

also fighting on the frozen skyrim with those nords that have lived there thousands of years and have adapted there would be hellish hard for the battered thalmor armies