Daedra VS Aedra

[Lachdonin]

This came up in another topic, and i'd thought i'd make a poll. The question is simple. One on One, free of any other influances such as plannar barriers, White Gold Tower, Etc, who is more powerful. An Aedra or a Daedric Prince.

 

I'm saying Daedric Princes myself, for a few reasons.

1; The only time we have seen a showdown between an Aedra and a Prince, it was on Mundus, on White Gold Towers doorstep. The Tower is a focal point of the plannar barriers which pre-date the Dragonfires, and as such would have left Dagon weakened. Even then, he manifested in his physicality, Akatosh needed a vessal.

2; The Aedra sacrificed a great deal of their divinity to create Nirn. The Princes sacrificed nothing

3; The Daedra embody change, the Aedra stasis. The world is rife with change, constantly, which shows that the Daedra, even seperate from Nirn, have more influance over it than the Aedra.

 

Please note, i don't want to see any 'Dur, Sithis is strongest!'. Sithis(Padomay) and Anu are both considerably more potent than either, thats a simple fact. This is between the Daedra and Aedra.

[Nomad42]

I would say Dadra as well, Aedra have no direct power over the world, Daedra do, plus they have better followers :P

[Matth85]

Aedra are too busy with Mundus, or whatever they are doing, so they got limited power within the mortal word. Whilst Dadreic Princes do whatever the heck they want.

Besides, they got such a nice bunch of personalities! Sheogorath certainly is more fun than any of the divines.

[marharth]

This isn't up to debate, it is fact that Daedra are more powerful.

 

Aedra can be killed, Daedra can not be killed. Aedra can not directly interfere with mortals, Daedra can.

[justwannaddl]

I imagine it depends on the daedra and aedra involved. Just because the Aedra were weakened by the creation of mundus doesn't mean they are weaker than the Daedra. Jyggalag, after his long imprisonment and banishment from the Isles, is likely to be far less powerful than Akatosh.

 

Personally, I do not consider the use of the Amulet or Whitegold tower a cheat since the power in the amulet was a portion of Akatosh's power and Dagon already pierced the barrier, allowing him to bring his full power into the world, making the tower's presence moot. Just as Akatosh needed a vessel to bring an avatar to the world, so too did Mehrunes Dagon need worshipers to weaken the barrier and open the gates needed to invade.

 

While mundus does see changes caused by daedra, mundus also still exists thanks to the aedra. Aedra are like the people who built a house and daedra are like a bunch of hobos looking to ransack it. Aedra have the power to create. Daedra have the power to mess it up.

 

edit: As for unkillable argument, which do you think is more powerful, the dragonborn or a scamp? In terms of which can mess with mortals, it isn't that clear cut either. Think of it this way, who is more likely to talk to you, the 300 pound boxer who busted his butt building a skyscraper or the lazy kid who has just filled up on sugar tweeting from his cell phone?

Edited December 19, 2011 by justwannaddl

[Lachdonin]

Personally, I do not consider the use of the Amulet or Whitegold tower a cheat since the power in the amulet was a portion of Akatosh's power and Dagon already pierced the barrier, allowing him to bring his full power into the world, making the tower's presence moot. Just as Akatosh needed a vessel to bring an avatar to the world, so too did Mehrunes Dagon need worshipers to weaken the barrier and open the gates needed to invade.

 

If you read The Indernal City, it's clearly explained that manifesting on Mundus does not mean one is at its full power. Umbriel manifested, and could do an immense amount of damage even in its sorely detached state, but it's full potential was concealed behind the barrier maintained by White Gold Tower. And that was when it was thousands of kilometers away from it. Since Umbriel was little more than the extention of Umbra, the same dynamic would apply to a Daedric Prince. Dagon was able to manifest, yes, but saying he was at his full power is absurd.

[justwannaddl]

Interesting point. I haven't read "The Infernal City" yet but from what I remember from Oblivion, after Martin Septim sacrificed himself, the barrier was supposed to have been made permanent, preventing Dagon and his daedra from simply stepping back into Mundus through portals after defeat.

 

From what you have described, it sounds like Whitegold tower is, for whatever reason, the new focal point of the barrier. The barriers were up when Umbriel entered but they were down according to Martin Septim when Dagon invaded. Otherwise all he would have needed to do was light the fires and reseal the barrier, thus closing all the gates and banishing all the daedra. It is far from unreasonable to assume Dagon was at full power.

 

edit: Of course, if the White Gold Tower Barrier is not the same as the Martin Septim barrier, then that is a different story.

Edited December 19, 2011 by justwannaddl

[Lachdonin]

In the Infernal City they explain that there are, in fact, many barriers seperating Mundus from Oblivion. The one Akatosh maintained, through the Dragonfires, was one, and seems to be the only one known to man. The Elves, who built White Gold Tower, had their own, of which White Gold Tower is the focal point, and there is at least one more based around the Adamantium Tower in High Rock.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there is another focus point in Summerset as well, and the Hist appear to be able to heavily influance inter-planar travel, meaning they likely maintain their own form of barrier.

[justwannaddl]

"Lighting the Dragonfires will no longer save us... the barriers that protected us from Oblivion are gone."

-Martin Septim after seeing Mehrunes Dagon manifesting himself in Tamriel.

 

This statement by Martin indicates the dragonfires controlled all the barriers. Since the invasion also occurred in the Summerset Isles and most likely all of Tamriel, I wouldn't be quick to dismiss this observation. That the daedra at the tower seemed no weaker than the daedra in the Deadlands would also indicate that the barriers felt by Umbra were pretty much gone during Oblivion. Whether or not this has been explicitly retconned in "The Infernal City" or later books is not something I can say though it wouldn't be the first time TES has contradicted itself.

 

edit: If it was a separate barrier, then it may also indicate that the other barriers were taken down after the main dragonfire barrier were eventually taken down. This would make sense since it would explain why Dagon didn't just jump in at anytime. He needed the gates to tear up the residual or lesser barriers left before he could lumber through. In any case, it is indicated that no barriers existed when Dagon entered.

Edited December 19, 2011 by justwannaddl

[Lachdonin]

A quote from a human is all you base that asumption on? Its made rather clear throughout the TES games that humans, particularly in the Empire, think the Dragonfires are the be-all and end-all, despite the fact that they fires were created during the anointment of St. Alessia. What kept the Daedra out before that?

 

That said, we do know the Daedra were more active before the Dragonfires were lit. Their influance and interaction with Elven popuations shows that the earlier barriest were not as absolute as the Dragonfires. Since the fires were lit, you haven't had a Daedric prince creating any new races, have you? Some cosmetic changes with the Dunmer, but nothing so pronounced as the creation of the Orcs and Khajit.

 

The Dragonfires were certianly the most powerful of the barriers, but there is no credible indication that they were the absolute.