Daedra VS Aedra

[justwannaddl]

What's wrong with quoting Martin? The only mortals with access to more knowledge of the barriers at the time were Mankar Cameron and maybe a few of his cronies. Besides, one of the Mythic Dawn's goals was to bring down the barriers and by pretty much all accounts, they succeeded.

 

As for what kept daedra out before the human dynasties, it is possible that the Amulet was originally used by the Ayleids since the gem was looted from them. It wouldn't surprise me if it played an important part in maintaining the barriers even then. Humans apparently aren't the only ones who can be dragonborn. Hell, Mankar Cameron could have been a descendant of Ayleid dragonborns if him wearing the amulet was any indication. Like the Ayleids though, that info is pretty much lost for now.

 

If there still was a barrier at white gold tower after the fires died and the gates tore through Tamriel, it didn't seem to have much if any effect on them. What isn't in doubt was that after the fires died, full strength daedra poured into Tamriel until what I believe was a full strength Dagon was thoroughly beaten by Akatosh. It is tough to tell since it isn't everyday that you fight a daedric prince.

 

As I said, the difference between the power of an aedra vs a daedra likely differs with each individual. Dagon was definitely more powerful than Jyggalag while Jyggalag couldn't defeat Alduin much less Akatosh. As for who are more fun, the daedra are obviously more interesting.

[Lachdonin]

I think you're trying to stretch my point further than i intended, and from what i read i don't think you're doing in on purpose either. Which means the problem is in my arguementation, and for that i am sorry. I will try again.

 

We know that there are several layers of protection on Mundus to keep out planar entities. The Dragon Fires controled one. Whitegold Tower controls another. The Adamantium Tower controls a third. There may be more. The Dragon Fires also appears to be the most powerful of these barriers.

 

The Dragon Fires do NOT, however, keep out Daedra in their entirety. They can be summoned, the Princes can interact in minor ways, and even lesser Daedra can enter Mundus of their own free will in certian places. We also know of at least 2 incedents in which a Daedric Prince has entere Mundus, while the Dragonfires have been active.

 

First was when Merunes Dagon was summoned by the Empire during the attack on Mournhod.

Second was when Hercine appeared during the Bloodmoon.

 

We also know Azura manifested several times, at least at the Battle of Red Mountian and at least twice to the Nerevarine.

 

As such, we could conclude the Dragonfires were not absolute in their protection themselves, but were quire effective.

 

During the Oblivion crisis, the Dragon Fires failed, meaning that the stongest barrier was no longer in play. Or, at least, it started to fail, and by the culmination of the story, gave out completely. This allowed Merunes Dagon to enter Mundus of his own accord, and since it's been shown that the Daedra could do that even before the failure of the Dragon Fires, we have to assume he chose that instant to attack because he could be sufficiently powerful to tear down all the barriers himself. The only reason for him to attack the Imperial City would have been because of the White Gold Tower, which still prevented his full and terrible manifestation.

 

You also have the fact that Akatosh required a vessel to manifest, indicating that similar barriers are in play for the Aedra, though whether it is their weakness from the creation of Mundus or if the same barriers affect them is open for debate.

 

The point is, the confrontation in the Imperial city cannot be used as an accurate gauge of power for either the Aedra or the Daedra.

[justwannaddl]

Ah. I did misinterpret your argument somewhat. I thought you were saying that Dagon was more powerful than Akatosh simply because he was a Daedra and Akatosh was an Aedra instead of arguing that the battle between Dagon and Akatosh should not be taken at face value.

 

I'll concede that it is possible that the White Gold Tower held significance after the the fires died, though the IC in general has been perhaps the most important military objective for many armies for much of its history.

 

The Crystal Tower's destruction in the Summerset Isles does lend credence to the idea that the towers may have some additional role in providing barriers. Once again though, as perhaps the most powerful stronghold of magical knowledge in the Summerset Isles, it was also a major military target. The attacks on Bruma and Kvatch further show that you do not need a tower to be a target for Dagon.

 

I do agree that the confrontation wasn't the best match up because of the unusual circumstances and Akatosh's home field advantage. Until we see further confrontations though, blanket statements claiming all daedric princes are stronger than aedric gods just aren't as plausible as they were before Oblivion.

Edited December 19, 2011 by justwannaddl

[Lachdonin]

My general arguement that the Daedra are stronger, on even terms, stems from the fact that the Aedra gave a substantial amount of their power to create Nirn, while the Daedra, removed from the process, gave up nothing and remain whole.

[justwannaddl]

My counter to that is that while the Aedra are weaker/limited compared to their original power, that does not necessarily mean they are always weaker than the daedric princes. We simply do not know what kind of power the Daedra or the Aedra truly wield; only some dubious limits and behavior that are frequently contradicted or circumvented.

[Lachdonin]

My counter to that is that while the Aedra are weaker/limited compared to their original power, that does not necessarily mean they are always weaker than the daedric princes. We simply do not know what kind of power the Daedra or the Aedra truly wield; only some dubious limits and behavior that are frequently contradicted or circumvented.

 

True, i generally opperate on the asumption that, as base, they are of equal power. They are the 'children' of two equal, though polarly opposite gods, and as such i would assume that, prior to the creation of Nirn, they were on equal footing.

[justwannaddl]

I actually read an interesting observation regarding the base power of the Aedra vs the Daedra. I can't find the source though. The thought was that as a group, both sides started equal but the power of the Aedra birthed by Anu was concentrated in fewer individuals than the Daedra who were products of Padomay; nine or so Aedra if you included Lorkhan and fifteen to seventeen or so Daedric princes. Individual aedra were on average, more powerful than individual daedra. This is only a theory of course and it doesn't hold up that well when you consider how Aedra can die/turn into daedra thus putting the numbers into question. It is still an interesting concept to ponder though. Edited December 19, 2011 by justwannaddl

[Lachdonin]

Theres also the concern of the other Et'ada. We know that the Aedra and Daedra are but a small number of the various entities birthed from Padomay and Anu. In principal, there is at least one Et'ada for each star. So we're talking thousands of 'gods'.