[WIP] Weapon Addition and Replacement Suite (WARS)

[antistar]

I find it difficult to believe that the game lacks keyword hooks for perks that interact with recoil; It seems like something basic. And if that is the case,then I find it fathomlessly stupid,because it is something so basic and essential.

 

A little more on topic; Antistar,have you considered implementing a Carl Gustaf? 84mm recoilless rifle,used by the majority of NATO nations as an antitank weapon,and it's a living fossil. Fires shells (NOT rockets!) to do the job,meaning the compatible ammo is incredibly versatile; A Carl Gustaf can,conceivably,do anything. Conversely,the Missile Launcher,as it exists in the game,can only fire the one round; HEAT (I think?) missiles,and it can mount a target lock. I personally think the two weapons are dissimilar enough to be able to serve different niches. If it's at all feasible for you to implement,would it be something you'd consider,Antistar?

It's something I'd be happy to be wrong about - but I don't think I am, unfortunately.

 

A Carl Gustaf would be another example of a weapon that would be cool to have in there, but I'd have no idea if I'd ever get time to implement.

 

 

Just one little thing from a real gun nut. About that "fictional 5mm round" ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5mm_Remington_Rimfire_Magnum

 

Otherwise, looking forward to the end results.

That's interesting; I've never heard of that one. However the general approach to weaponry in... pretty much any Fallout game besides New Vegas - makes me think that they were probably not thinking of an obscure rimfire cartridge from the ~1970s when they did the Minigun. Beyond the size of the weapon, I've noted here before that even the in-game art for the 5mm ammo pickup has "7.62x51mm" written on it.

[Nihilisaurus]

 

That's interesting; I've never heard of that one. However the general approach to weaponry in... pretty much any Fallout game besides New Vegas - makes me think that they were probably not thinking of an obscure rimfire cartridge from the ~1970s when they did the Minigun. Beyond the size of the weapon, I've noted here before that even the in-game art for the 5mm ammo pickup has "7.62x51mm" written on it.

Given the art assets they made it's obvious that at some point they weren't going to include 5mm and then they changed their minds, if you look at FO1,2 and NV it gets treated more consistently as 'military standard' ammo. My best guess is that a 5mm round got chosen instead of .223 as the standard cartridge to replace 7.62x51mm NATO - making it something centerfire like 5mm/35 SMc or .204 Remmington - which is why .223 is still referred to as .223 in the originals rather than 5.56mm.

[Deleted24818959User]

Honestly I think that the devs were on to something when they created the "fictional 5mm round," Why? because as earlier discussed in older pages, the sheer recoil would make the minigun it infeasible in the real world, and knowing this, the devs cobbled up a low recoil cartridge that shares similarities to the FN 5.7 that could be realistically implemented in miniguns, without killing the poor guy using the damn thing, BUT there is still hope for miniguns that aren't peashooters, the XM556 is a perfect example of this and In my opinion

 

the minigun should be divided into two classes: Power armor usage and non power armor usage.

 

-There could be two types of miniguns: .30 caliber 7.62x51mm miniguns which could be used only in power armor to strengthen the minigun-powerarmor bond, and using it outside of power armor would knock you around like an angry mule.

 

- And the lighter .22 caliber 5.56x45 which could be a more versatile "minigun carbine" that players can use when not in power armor.

 

Last suggestions: for load orders,

 

-Give weapons in the 5.45x39, 7.62x39 & 7.62x54mmR families to the super mutants because they don't have the fine motor skills and quite frankly a high enough IQ to effectively take care of firearms with more parts such as the ar15 family and sa80 family which should be in the raider and "other humans" levelled list.

 

-Give the more technologically advanced heavy weapons & Battle rifles the to the BoS because they seem to have the industry required make more parts and to uphold the technical condition of the weapons that they use.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Guest

[ZOMKILL]

Antistar,

 

 

how does the mod evolve?

[PatriotGuy]

I do like the idea of having both a minigun that requires power armor and one that does not.

[Nihilisaurus]

the devs cobbled up a low recoil cartridge that shares similarities to the FN 5.7 that could be realistically implemented in miniguns

The FN 5.7mm cartridge is literally a 5.56x45mm NATO bullet (a steel-tip SS109 for the military ammo, a regular copper-jacket one for the civilian stuff) sat on top of a straight-walled pistol cartridge case. Without the fancy bullet's it's essentially just a .22 magnum, which isn't that impressive of a cartridge, and if you make it more powerful you just get 5.56mm NATO again. That said, if Antistar can find a decent way to make perks affect recoil it'd be possible to give the minigun 7.62mm options that gave it horrible recoil, and then give power armour itself recoil mitigation (Which it should have anyway, in all honesty).

[Deleted24818959User]

 

The FN 5.7mm cartridge is literally a 5.56x45mm NATO bullet (a steel-tip SS109 for the military ammo, a regular copper-jacket one for the civilian stuff) sat on top of a straight-walled pistol cartridge case. Without the fancy bullet's it's essentially just a .22 magnum, which isn't that impressive of a cartridge

Huh, I remember a thread on AR15.com where they were comparing ballistic differences/similarities between .22wmr and FN 5.7x28 and basically without dabbling to much in ballistics and whatnot, the verdict was that the

5.7 = 22wmr meme is not true and the 5.7x28mm is still 30% better.

 

Where am I getting at?

 

Although the 5mm cartridge which I assume is 40grain 5.7x28mm FMJ projectile, It makes sense when you use it for the minigun Lite version, but starts to become obnoxious when people in power armor like the BoS and the Enclave who use armor that mitigates enough recoil in a cartridge to make a hand-held M2hb feel like a full auto coversion for the ruger 10/22 are using a "castrated" minigun that has trouble penetrating some dumb raider's ghetto plate carrier from more than 150 yards, so Having 2 types of miniguns actually makes sense.

[Nihilisaurus]

 

Huh, I remember a thread on AR15.com where they were comparing ballistic differences/similarities between .22wmr and FN 5.7x28 and basically without dabbling to much in ballistics and whatnot, the verdict was that the

5.7 = 22wmr meme is not true and the 5.7x28mm is still 30% better.

 

The hotter loads of 5.7mm were alright, but they lowered the power of the cartridge so it'd be usable in the Five-Seven pistol, and combined with the change from a steel core projectile in the civilian ammo it leaves the cartridge pretty weak. It's about 470 vs 440 joules of muzzle energy for a 5.7 vs a .22 wmr, the longer spitzer profile will help it reach out a bit further but it's not exactly a world-changing difference. For comparison civillian .223 rem will run you at about 1800J and 9mm can do about 570-670J. It's a pistol/SMG cartridge, in its hotter loadings with good bullets it's a thoroughly decent pistol/SMG cartridge but it's just not in the same ballpark as a rifle round (which puts triple the energy into the same bullet) and it doesn't sit at the same table. If you want crazy high rate of fire in something like 5.7x28mm you can get 1800+RPM out of an SMG if you have a light bolt and decent recoil springs/mags (and it will be exactly as useless 99% of the time), no reason to lug around an electrically operated Gatling gun to achieve it.

 

 

Although the 5mm cartridge which I assume is 40grain 5.7x28mm FMJ projectile, It makes sense when you use it for the minigun Lite version, but starts to become obnoxious when people in power armor like the BoS and the Enclave who use armor that mitigates enough recoil in a cartridge to make a hand-held M2hb feel like a full auto coversion for the ruger 10/22 are using a "castrated" minigun that has trouble penetrating some dumb raider's ghetto plate carrier from more than 150 yards, so Having 2 types of miniguns actually makes sense.

 

I'd agree with that. Power armour gives a significant advantage in terms of recoil mitigation and stability, the whole point was to let foot infantry feasibly carry heavy weapons into battle with some degree of protection. I mean miniguns are silly as infantry weapons but in the fallout universe they're there and we should have fun - and they make more sense on power armour than elsewhere. If you were going to have a 'light' infantry minigun it'd have to be like the xm556 and take standard ammo, question is whether that's 5mm or 5.56mm. I'm sort of nostalgic for the older games (and somewhat NV) where 5mm was the army's ammo - and came in all the fun armour penetrating varieties - whereas .223 was civillian/marksman's ammo. In fact the main problem is that Bethesda always treats 5mm as just 'the minigun ammo' and tries to balance the minigun not to be a late-game weapon so they can give it out to more NPCs, resulting in 5mm damage being junk and the ammo itself mostly being consigned to vendor fodder. In prior games 5mm is high-velocity rifle ammunition issued with an AP tip but available in FMJ, like real life's 5.56mm NATO.

 

The way it was treated in NV was pretty good in this respect, it did slightly lower damage than 5.56mm but even the 'standard' ammo had an armour penetration effect, and the AP had the same damage debuff as other AP but stacked the amount of armour pen from being AP and being 5mm, making it a very potent round against things with decent armour but mediocre HP like well-equipped humans, whilst lacking the raw damage to be good against everything unless used in large volume. This made the minigun/s very good weapons, but expensive to feed and best used against groups of human enemies with decent gear. Hell, in Fallout terms the AR15 should probably be available in either 5mm or 5.56, with 5mm being the military chambering - though that's a bit of a deviation from the actual gun and I'm not sure Antistar wants to stray that way, given his goal is to swap out FO4's worst guns for real ones rather than Fallout-ise them.

 

For a heavier weapon 7.62x51mm makes sense. It offers a little bit more barrier penetration and punch against body armour (if you use the right bullets) without being absurdly large, and power armour at least has the strength to port the quantities needed, even if you would need an enormous FO3/NV style backpack to manage it. I mean batteries are less of a problem in Fallout than IRL, we can presume there's a fusion core in there somewhere instead of lugging 10kg of lead-acid batteries around like a real minigun needs. An M2 would be a nice gun to have as well and I know WastelandMelody did one, it'd be easy enough to patch the ESP to match the damage/accuracy stats ETC and flatten out the vanilla-style receiver options which would be easy enough for someone to do without adding it to WARS directly.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Lt Albrecht

[antistar]

Honestly I think that the devs were on to something when they created the "fictional 5mm round," Why? because as earlier discussed in older pages, the sheer recoil would make the minigun it infeasible in the real world, and knowing this, the devs cobbled up a low recoil cartridge that shares similarities to the FN 5.7 that could be realistically implemented in miniguns, without killing the poor guy using the damn thing, BUT there is still hope for miniguns that aren't peashooters, the XM556 is a perfect example of this and In my opinion

 

the minigun should be divided into two classes: Power armor usage and non power armor usage.

 

-There could be two types of miniguns: .30 caliber 7.62x51mm miniguns which could be used only in power armor to strengthen the minigun-powerarmor bond, and using it outside of power armor would knock you around like an angry mule.

 

- And the lighter .22 caliber 5.56x45 which could be a more versatile "minigun carbine" that players can use when not in power armor.

One reason I'm considering just making the 5mm into a (probably low-power "bulk") .308 round is because of the huge size of the FO4 Minigun. I keep coming back to that, and that tiny XM556 (like other prototype 5.56x45mm miniguns I've seen) is a good illustration of why that is; they're pretty small, really!

 

I think a new - smaller - minigun model would be needed to really sell the idea of a smaller-calibre non-power-armour minigun variant. And if I were to do that I'd probably just have it use 5.56x45mm.

 

 

how does the mod evolve?

Being in hospital for a while caused a bit of a delay, as you might imagine - but I should have some new Mini-14 related stuff to show fairly soon.

[OBERBERG]

Instead of a perk to effect recoil, you could try using the recoil compensating stocks (Object references) in vanilla as a reference, and modify the standard receiver (or whatever makes it 5mm) to mimc the effects.