[WIP] Weapon Addition and Replacement Suite (WARS)

[PoorlyAged]

The problem that is unstated and therefore unaddressed in any game or mod is that ballistic weapons and the damage they produce are not realistically represented in a simple table.

 

The big reason that there is no simple chart is that a single round can have variable data. The variability is based on bullet weight, bullet type, powder charge, type of powder, how the case is crimped, and the primer. How the powder lays in the case when the round is chambered can produce different results for two bullets loaded exactly the same. A heavy load of powder behind a lighter bullet will have a higher muzzle velocity, but will have less striking power at the target, whereas a lighter powder load behind a heavier bullet will produce a lower muzzle velocity but will send the target head over heals.

 

Factory rounds have a wider variability than hand loaded rounds, which is why serious shooters hand load their ammunition. But even hand loaders disagree. Does 45.5 grains of a ball powder perform better than 45.5 grains of extruded powder in the same round? Roll crimp or not? Case neck or full case resize. FMJ or SJHP or SJFP or alloy? There is no single answer.

 

So game and mod makers make trade-offs and take an "average" of characteristics and ignore some entirely. But my guess is that most don't even understand the choices and trade offs. Or what characteristics are even important. Velocity is important, but is it more important than power at impact? Chamber pressure is important, but does it actually improve range? Is high power at impact more important than bullet penetration? It depends on what the shooter wants.

 

Fallout 4 only has three characteristics to play with on every ballistic weapon. Range, Stagger and Damage. Range is simple, how far will the bullet travel before it hits the planet again. Stagger is the functional equivalent of impact at target. Damage is different, as it has no correlation in the real world.

 

Damage is an amalgamation of virtually every other characteristic that is available, and quite frankly is an arbitrary number. It is whatever the game or mod maker thinks it should be based on their best guess. Why? Because a .45 caliber round fired from a 6 inch barrel has the same effects at 25 yards as a .308 caliber round fired from a 24 inch barrel at 500 yards. Same impact on target. Same penetration. But in the world of Fallout 4 the damage value between these two is often so disparate as to be laughable. Then the value for damage is assigned to the gun, not the cartridges. How unreal is that?

 

So my point is simple. Pick a number you like and call it Damage. Base it on whatever characteristics you like. It won't be close to the real world by a mile. Damage means exactly what you want it to mean.

[antistar]

As far as velocity and range and such, I've been using this and just relying on the guys research. http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/20389/?tab=2&navtag=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexusmods.com%2Ffallout4%2Fajax%2Fmodfiles%2F%3Fid%3D20389&pUp=1 . As for Damage, I have my own values that I've input using new calibers. I can throw you a copy of my own esp if you want to eyeball it. Keep in mind that I've removed all of the player and NPC health scaling in my game using a separate mereged esp, which is how it all works, but you can still apply the base values in the ammunition records to the vanilla method of balance and gameplay.

 

I've got a folder full of various FO4 mods to use as reference, and that mod is in there. Thanks though. Also I believe AmmoTweaks (which I'm still planning to use as a master) has its own projectile velocity/gravity/etc values. I'll see how those go.

 

I am probably going to be removing HP scaling too; so that a character's HP will be different based on END and perks, but not their level. That's the idea, anyway; I haven't looked at this stuff yet.

 

 

The problem that is unstated and therefore unaddressed in any game or mod is that ballistic weapons and the damage they produce are not realistically represented in a simple table.

 

(snip)

 

So my point is simple. Pick a number you like and call it Damage. Base it on whatever characteristics you like. It won't be close to the real world by a mile. Damage means exactly what you want it to mean.

 

I know what you mean. Well, not so much the nitty-gritty specifics - I'm an Australian computer nerd; I've never so much as touched an actual firearm. ;)

 

It's sort of what I was getting at when saying that muzzle energy values would likely be used just as a starting point to get a rough idea of relative (not absolute) damage between weapons. Damage will largely be determined by ammo type, maybe with some slight variance based on weapon for the sake of having more differences between weapons that use the same ammo.

 

Stagger is an interesting one that I haven't given much thought to yet.

 

From what I've read, Range in FO4 mainly determines where you start to get a falloff in damage. I vaguely recall it being as simple as 50% damage when "out of range", but I could be wrong there. Projectiles for ballistic weapons are (almost?) all hit-scan in vanilla FO4, so Range doesn't determine trajectory as far as I'm aware. "Bullets are not lasers" is mentioned in the OP; it was always something I was going to address in WARS. :)

[PoorlyAged]

 

< Prune >

 

From what I've read, Range in FO4 mainly determines where you start to get a falloff in damage. I vaguely recall it being as simple as 50% damage when "out of range", but I could be wrong there. Projectiles for ballistic weapons are (almost?) all hit-scan in vanilla FO4, so Range doesn't determine trajectory as far as I'm aware. "Bullets are not lasers" is mentioned in the OP; it was always something I was going to address in WARS. :smile:

 

 

The drop-off is specified on the Weapon form as "Out-of-Range Multiplier".

 

It is my experience that range also affects targeting in VATS. I seem that the higher the range, the further distant you can target something.

[antistar]

The drop-off is specified on the Weapon form as "Out-of-Range Multiplier".

Ah, that does ring a bell.

 

(Stating the obvious, but I haven't got to the stats side of things in earnest yet. :wink:)

[BullBars1]

Hi,

 

I like the idea but many of the players concerns are about maxed out mod lists.

 

New 308 ammo for the Gatling gun is not as effective as using 223 or 5.56 NATO since you will be able to carry twice as much ammo. By switching the bullet type from regular lead tip or poly tipped to FMJ, armor will be penetrated a lot faster and the bullet will pass through unarmored enemies into the next one directly behind the first target. Crowd control is it's purpose.

 

Plus adding more required mods isn't solving that too many mods problem.

 

Looking forward to the final package.

 

BB1

[antistar]

You mean the plugin limit? What makes you mention that? I guess I probably haven't specified before, but WARS is just one plugin. A required plugin (I.e. Loads of Ammo or - currently planned - AmmoTweaks) is only one more plugin on top of that.

 

I was talking more about plans re: the Minigun somewhere in the recent pages.

[protatato]

Not sure how it factors into what you're doing, but as it turns out, multi-round reloading and burst-fire can work on console. The M1014 and FAMAS have been ported, and both are well done. There's also a lever-action rifle reloading fix but I'm unsure how it works, as I don't have Far Harbor. Still, this may be good to keep in mind moving forward.

[Nihilisaurus]

the bullet will pass through unarmored enemies into the next one directly behind the first target. Crowd control is it's purpose.

That is ridiculous. For one you want the bullet to drop its energy into whatever you hit in order to cause sufficient wounding. Secondly even if you *could* line up multiple targets, a bullet deforms as it travels through solid objects which can distort its course, and thirdly: that's not what miniguns are for. The incredibly high rate of fire is to give you a sufficient density of rounds on target over short engagement windows to give a better probability of scoring a hit.

 

A heavy load of powder behind a lighter bullet will have a higher muzzle velocity, but will have less striking power at the target, whereas a lighter powder load behind a heavier bullet will produce a lower muzzle velocity but will send the target head over heals.

Ok, that's not right and I could do maths to show it - or just provide analogies. Bullets are tiny and their momentum is negligible compared to a human being, which is why you can launch them from a firearm braced against your shoulder. Heavy bullets do have their uses though, as I imagine you know.

 

So my point is simple. Pick a number you like and call it Damage. Base it on whatever characteristics you like. It won't be close to the real world by a mile. Damage means exactly what you want it to mean.

Amen to that. There are so many things involved in what happens that any game that tries to simulate them accurately gets pretty dry quite fast.

[BullBars1]

 

the bullet will pass through unarmored enemies into the next one directly behind the first target. Crowd control is it's purpose.

That is ridiculous. For one you want the bullet to drop its energy into whatever you hit in order to cause sufficient wounding. Secondly even if you *could* line up multiple targets, a bullet deforms as it travels through solid objects which can distort its course, and thirdly: that's not what miniguns are for. The incredibly high rate of fire is to give you a sufficient density of rounds on target over short engagement windows to give a better probability of scoring a hit.

 

A heavy load of powder behind a lighter bullet will have a higher muzzle velocity, but will have less striking power at the target, whereas a lighter powder load behind a heavier bullet will produce a lower muzzle velocity but will send the target head over heals.

Ok, that's not right and I could do maths to show it - or just provide analogies. Bullets are tiny and their momentum is negligible compared to a human being, which is why you can launch them from a firearm braced against your shoulder. Heavy bullets do have their uses though, as I imagine you know.

 

So my point is simple. Pick a number you like and call it Damage. Base it on whatever characteristics you like. It won't be close to the real world by a mile. Damage means exactly what you want it to mean.

Amen to that. There are so many things involved in what happens that any game that tries to simulate them accurately gets pretty dry quite fast.

 

 

Why don't you shoot something with a rifle before shooting your mouth and reading everything before putting your mouth in gear. I've shot coyotes with .223 FMJ and they are not for hunting or for that matter for killing because there isn't any bullet expansion or fragmentation to cause any hydraulic effect so there won't be a wound channel. The coyote runs for miles and you loose them because the entry and exit wound clot over and the blood trail stops. The bullet type has everything to do with killing or wounding. A .223 (5.56) 50 grain V-max @ 3300 fps if shot at a broad-side coyote will disintegrate it self within an inch of penetrating the ribcage and will liquefy the heart and lungs but will NOT make an exit wound because there isn't a fragment larger than the end of a pencil lead. This I have proved time after time for many years of trapping and hunting. I have also seen a friend of mine shoot two coyotes with one shot but it was a .308 (7.62) with 150 grain bullet designed to smash through bone and cripple large game. The only thing ridiculous was explaining this to someone who at the most has shot a paper target.

[PoorlyAged]

 

 

 

A heavy load of powder behind a lighter bullet will have a higher muzzle velocity, but will have less striking power at the target, whereas a lighter powder load behind a heavier bullet will produce a lower muzzle velocity but will send the target head over heals.

Ok, that's not right and I could do maths to show it - or just provide analogies. Bullets are tiny and their momentum is negligible compared to a human being, which is why you can launch them from a firearm braced against your shoulder. Heavy bullets do have their uses though, as I imagine you know.

 

 

 

The following is from the Speer Rifle and Pistol (Speer make bullets) reloading tables for .308 Winchester rounds (it is where the book fell open too).

 

• a 110 gr bullet backed by 36 gr of IMR 4350 power has a muzzle velocity of 1976 fps.
• a 170 gr bullet backed by 30 gr of IMR 4350 power has a muzzle velocity or 1570 fps.

Heavy powder charge with light bullet is fast. Light powder charge with heavy bullet is slower.

 

 

The following is from the Hodgon Data Manual for reloading Rifle and Pistol (Hodgon makes powder) for .308 Winchester rounds (for consistency).

• a 100 gr bullet backed by 42 gr of BL-C(2) powder has a muzzle velocity of 2664 fps
• a 180 gr bullet backed by 41.5 gr of BL-C(2) powder has a muzzle velocity of 2453 fps.

Here, the powder charges are basically the same and still the heavier bullets is slower.

 

 

Even though heavier bullets are traveling fractionally slower, the heavier bullet has more potential energy and imparts more of that energy to the target. And that heavier impact is why the .45 ACP with its heavy slug is preferred by a lot of shooters over the lighter faster 9 mm.