Modding Steam vs Retail?

[wizardmirth]

I'm just wondering are there any important pro/cons to modding a steam version of this game rather than the disc. You can ignore any obvious response like, you don't need to run the DVD of course. I am more interested in...

 

1. is it okay (in this case) if steam is installed to the default directory (I have win 8.1)
2. is the steam version any more stable than the retail in terms of not crashing as often and handing mods?
3. would the same apply to steam Morrowind?
4. any problem with needing to reinstall the game if happening to reach some critical mass with mods?
5. any way to install two builds using steam (like one for testing mods with vanilla and one all modded out)
6. anything else you want to add

 

In case anyone is interested and a retail player, steam Oblivion and Morrowind are both on sale right now. The reason why I ask is that my retail games are a pain to install because all my add-ons are loose and I hate have having to run a disc every time. So I'm seriously considered getting the steam version of these, especially since I'm interested to get back into modding again. But if its going to be more hassle to mod then I'll probably just suck it up :/

[Maskar]

If you go with the disc version you don't have to worry about steam messing up OBSE somehow.

[DrakeTheDragon]

Additional to that, there's not much else difference in modding the two distributions, really.

 

Modding the Steam version is coming with a few "additional" pitfalls, but they're usually as easily overcome as the disc version's.

 

 

Of course, leaving the game inside the default location, anywhere inside program files or similarly overprotected system folder, will lead to issues with the UAC interfering in file placements and often causes issues with mod managers and even with manual installs at times. The files will go into the VirtualStore folder somewhere inside your user folders, the Windows Explorer will show them inside the program files when you look at it, but the game cannot be fooled by it and won't find the files. Thus installation outside of program files is always more or less mandatory, or one's just asking for trouble basically.

 

By the nature of Steam "moving" the game outside of these places is of course a little more difficult than it is with the disc version, as one has to move the entire Steam installation for this, last I heard.

 

 

While Archive Invalidation, i.e. telling the game which external replacement files to use over the internal ones from inside the game's BSAs, with the disc version is only required for replacement "textures" to work, with the Steam distribution of Oblivion now it is somehow required for just about everything as well.

 

And to further complicate matters, Steam also sets the timestamps of the BSA files to something very, very recently, as in most likely the installation date of the game or the last time the files were downloaded from Steam. Whereas Oblivion's natural dates for those files should lie somewhere around 2006, if I'm not mistaken. In Oblivion file date trumps just about everything, basically, and even prevents Archive Invalidation from working at all... unless someone re-dates the BSA files back to something more close to the game's actual release. This can either be done with a 3rd party file re-date tool I know absolutely nothing at all about, or simply via the Oblivion Mod Manager (OBMM) and its Archive Invalidation tools, by clicking the button "Reset BSA timestamps" once before applying the BSA Redirection approach to Archive Invalidation to your game.

 

 

That's it. Apart from that I've not yet heard of anything else different between the distributions when modding the game.

 

 

But of course the problems with getting OBSE to run and it being by different means for different people ever since some not-so-recent changes to the Steam framework in the past could definitely become a deal breaker to some. But don't be fooled, these, too, can always somehow be overcome. It's just the solutions I'm reading seem to differ with every new post I see, and not all will work for everyone as well apparently. I'm at a loss when I'm asked what one has to do today, because the solutions from yesterday might not necessarily be working anymore.

[wizardmirth]

Thanks, that's kind of what I thought. So now I'm thinking it would be great if there was a DVD that had both expansions and all DLC.... I can't tell but do GOTY Ed or 5th Anniversary DVDs contain all the individual DLCs?

 

Also as far as my default steam directory I have no problems with modding any games from there (fallouts, skyrim). Seems like this would only affect Oblivion from what I gather so far.

[archtrtd1]

I actually went out of my way to have hard disc copies of Oblivion and Fallout 3. I think that some of these older games are more stable without Steam running in the background - when you heavily mod these 32bit games you need to dedicate as much of the 3.2 gb ram as you can to the game and not other useless processes like Steam. I would happily buy all of my games on disc to avoid having to use Steam and have been trying to buy more of my games through GOG.com (no third party DRM client). You will not find any of the more modern Bethesda games on GOG.com, though.

 

I did not buy the GOTY Edition of Oblivion because I, too, could not determine whether or not all of the various smaller DLCs were included on the discs (and they require you to use Steam). I purchased Oblivion and all of it's DLC in three separate disc packages:

Fallout 3 & Oblivion Double Pack - PC

The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine - PC (this disc also contains: Horse Armor, The Orrery, Wizard's Tower, Vile Lair, Thieve's Den, Mehrune's Razor, and Spell Tomes. NOTE: for some reason you cannot purchase Fighter's Stronghold anywhere that I've seen including Steam.)

The Elder Scrolls IV: Shivering Isles - PC

 

I think I paid around $20 total for the discs above - the prices fluctuate quite a bit, so you may get lucky and find them cheaper.

 

I hope this helps.

[avalon2260]

*

Edited December 10, 2016 by avalon2260

[archtrtd1]

The GOTY edition only includes SI and NotN.

Thanks for letting us know! :laugh:

 

Wizardmirth, you can buy Morrowind from GOG.com (which is DRM free). If you use Steam, try to have everything installed outside of your Program Files folder (for example - C:/Games/Steam).

[Surilindur]

Just some thougts here.

• As was mentioned, the "normal" GOTY edition only includes SI + KotN (and none of the small DLC like Fighter's Stronghold)
• The GOTY Deluxe edition (yes, it is separate from the "normal" GOTY, and this one is what I mean --> http://store.steampowered.com/app/900883 ) includes everything from SI + KotN to all the small DLC (including Fighter's Stronghold), and it would be the one you want to get if you want those small DLC as well
• The Steam version, while being already up-to-date and not needing the disc, needs Steam, which can be a big downside, although Steam does indeed have an offline mode as well
• OBSE does work with the Steam version (at least the one from http://obse.silverlock.org/) - I have Steam overlay disabled globally and it still works - but you need to start Oblivion from within Steam (the Oblivion launcher will appear, clicking the play button launches the game), I think the obse_loader.exe even instructs Steam users to do that
• It is possible to have Steam installed inside a Program Files folder (mine is in C:\Program Files(x86)\Steam) with your game library - including Oblivion - outside Program Files (I have mine on another HDD in F:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Oblivion)
• The BSA archives' timestamps need to be reset (as was mentioned) for replacer mods to work

If you just want the small DLC, you could always buy the GOTY Deluxe edition from Steam, install it, copy the small DLC from that one (they are basically just mods), install your disc version with SI + KotN, and paste the small DLC into that one. But that would mean buying the GOTY Deluxe from Steam so... well... I did that with my Oblivion 5^th Anniversary Edition disc before I moved to the Steam version completely.

 

Edit: Oh and if you can find a DRM-free, automatically-up-to-date Oblivion with all the DLC then that is great. Steam is a bit... well... having games tied to it feels a bit odd. It works and all that, removes the need to manually patch and also the need for discs, but if/when Steam goes bankrupt, I have no idea what happens to the games there. A disc version does not depend on a company, an Intenet download or external software that need to be running (well, at least not Steam). I have copied the small DLC from the Steam version to a safe place, so that if Steam goes bankrupt somehow, I can install the 5th Anniversary Edition and copy all the small DLC into it to have an up-to-date Oblivion with all DLC but no DRM. I just use the Steam version because I have other games that need Steam (like Skyrim) so I need to use it anyway, and at least it makes redownloading individual files easy if I delete a base game file somehow and need to get it back.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Contrathetix

[wizardmirth]

I actually went out of my way to have hard disc copies of Oblivion and Fallout 3. I think that some of these older games are more stable without Steam running in the background - when you heavily mod these 32bit games you need to dedicate as much of the 3.2 gb ram as you can to the game and not other useless processes like Steam. I would happily buy all of my games on disc to avoid having to use Steam and have been trying to buy more of my games through GOG.com (no third party DRM client). You will not find any of the more modern Bethesda games on GOG.com, though.

 

I did not buy the GOTY Edition of Oblivion because I, too, could not determine whether or not all of the various smaller DLCs were included on the discs (and they require you to use Steam). I purchased Oblivion and all of it's DLC in three separate disc packages:

Fallout 3 & Oblivion Double Pack - PC

The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine - PC (this disc also contains: Horse Armor, The Orrery, Wizard's Tower, Vile Lair, Thieve's Den, Mehrune's Razor, and Spell Tomes. NOTE: for some reason you cannot purchase Fighter's Stronghold anywhere that I've seen including Steam.)

The Elder Scrolls IV: Shivering Isles - PC

 

I think I paid around $20 total for the discs above - the prices fluctuate quite a bit, so you may get lucky and find them cheaper.

 

I hope this helps.

 

I have FO3 on disc as well with all the content on one disc. This is exactly what I'm looking for with Oblivion! (On a side note I was lucky enough to get Fighter's Stronghold when it was first offered for free by the studio.)

 

 

The GOTY edition only includes SI and NotN.

 

How about 5th Anniversary Ed? Prob not though.

 

 

 

The GOTY edition only includes SI and NotN.

Thanks for letting us know! :laugh:

 

Wizardmirth, you can buy Morrowind from GOG.com (which is DRM free). If you use Steam, try to have everything installed outside of your Program Files folder (for example - C:/Games/Steam).

 

 

It's like half the price on steam right now though. And the thing is my steam is in default locale and I have 17 games in my library atm. (And now Mad Max and Left4Dead2 are on sale and I never played those! Focus, lol!)

 

See again I just want to reiterate - I have no problems modding FONV, FO4, and Skyrim old and SE with steam in my default location. I think Oblivion is the only one you need to worry about so far from what I am hearing. Maybe Morrowind would be too but I am ok with the loose files on those as they do not seem to be as invasive as installing all the loose Oblivion files (for me this means: 1. Standard Edition disc, 2. Shivering Isle disc, 3. KOTN disc, and every DLC installer.)

 

(Wait, do I need the installers for loose DLCs or could I in theory just drop the files from a previous install into the new install folder and check?)

 

Just some thougts here.

• As was mentioned, the "normal" GOTY edition only includes SI + KotN (and none of the small DLC like Fighter's Stronghold)
• The GOTY Deluxe edition (yes, it is separate from the "normal" GOTY, and this one is what I mean --> http://store.steampowered.com/app/900883 ) includes everything from SI + KotN to all the small DLC (including Fighter's Stronghold), and it would be the one you want to get if you want those small DLC as well
• The Steam version, while being already up-to-date and not needing the disc, needs Steam, which can be a big downside, although Steam does indeed have an offline mode as well
• OBSE does work with the Steam version (at least the one from http://obse.silverlock.org/) - I have Steam overlay disabled globally and it still works - but you need to start Oblivion from within Steam (the Oblivion launcher will appear, clicking the play button launches the game), I think the obse_loader.exe even instructs Steam users to do that
• It is possible to have Steam installed inside a Program Files folder (mine is in C:\Program Files(x86)\Steam) with your game library - including Oblivion - outside Program Files (I have mine on another HDD in F:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Oblivion)
• The BSA archives' timestamps need to be reset (as was mentioned) for replacer mods to work

If you just want the small DLC, you could always buy the GOTY Deluxe edition from Steam, install it, copy the small DLC from that one (they are basically just mods), install your disc version with SI + KotN, and paste the small DLC into that one. But that would mean buying the GOTY Deluxe from Steam so... well... I did that with my Oblivion 5^th Anniversary Edition disc before I moved to the Steam version completely.

 

Edit: Oh and if you can find a DRM-free, automatically-up-to-date Oblivion with all the DLC then that is great. Steam is a bit... well... having games tied to it feels a bit odd. It works and all that, removes the need to manually patch and also the need for discs, but if/when Steam goes bankrupt, I have no idea what happens to the games there. A disc version does not depend on a company, an Intenet download or external software that need to be running (well, at least not Steam). I have copied the small DLC from the Steam version to a safe place, so that if Steam goes bankrupt somehow, I can install the 5th Anniversary Edition and copy all the small DLC into it to have an up-to-date Oblivion with all DLC but no DRM. I just use the Steam version because I have other games that need Steam (like Skyrim) so I need to use it anyway, and at least it makes redownloading individual files easy if I delete a base game file somehow and need to get it back.

 

So drop and check DLC plugins is doable from a previous install yes?

 

If steam goes out of business what happens to all our games? Is there some license agreement that if they financially tank they don't have to give us our games back somehow?

 

Also, what sort of problems can steam version of obse and steam create together?

 

Can anyone confirm being able to heavily mod the steam version of Oblivion in the default folder location with little to no problems? (Again, I will probably just stick with my ancient discs of lore anyway but am curious.)

Edited November 26, 2016 by wizardmirth

[Surilindur]

<snip>

 

The 5^th Anniversary Edition only includes Oblivion + SI + KotN, and is therefore probably the same as the GOTY disc I think... ? I only have a plastic 5^th AE box, bought it very very cheap at a discount from a local store, and is how I first got into Oblivion - no fancy collector metal boxes for me. :tongue:

 

The small DLC (Horse Armor, Fighter's Stronghold, Orrery, etc.) can be copied as normal files, as they are basically just mods. KotN might be the same, but I have never tried copying + pasting it. Shivering Isles always needs the installer, though (which you probably knew already).

 

I had my disc version of Oblivion installed inside the Program Files folder on Windows 7 for ages with no issues. So having it in Program Files does work, but some people seem to have had issues with it. The same goes for Steam version of Oblivion + OBSE: I have had no issues myself, at least not any major issues, but some people seem to have loads of issues. I have not noticed any changes in stability, either, or anything else. Maybe I just have not paid enough attention, and "heavily modded" is subjective I think.

 

In case you are not aware, you can have multiple Steam library folders. If you already have the "default" library folder

• C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\<games>

you can freely add in another library folder, for example to the root of C

• C:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\<games>

and choose to install Oblivion in there. Or even make it on another drive. To avoid some of the "Windows UAC" stuff. You can manage the library folders in (top left corner of Steam client): Steam -> Settings -> Downloads -> Steam Library Folders

 

If you are more comfortable with disc versions, then just use them. Simple as that. No one is forcing you to use Steam, especially since you have a choice. :thumbsup: As for what happens if Steam goes bankrupt - no idea, never really thought about it much. I have 22 games in my library and do not plan on getting any more for now. It is all I need, and buying digital content from a place like Steam that does give me something (the game) but still does not actually give me anything (nothing physical, only data that I can download and use), it just does not feel right. Or maybe I am just too suspicious. Also the Skyrim retail boxes also require Steam, so not buying the box itself does not really matter with Steam sales and all that. Hmm. I am definitely fully ready to lose my whole Steam library if Steam goes bankrupt. Shame how most new games seem to need it, and not just Steam: Ubisoft has Uplay and EA has Origin. They need some sort of DRM (at least thet tell people so), but somehow there always seems to end up being pirated copies around, and the only one who suffers from the added DRM is the paying customer. Automatic updates and all that are a plus, though, and the more I think about it, the more it can also be about bringing gaming to the masses on PC (no need to manually patch - if the average kiddie gamer needs to follow manual patching procedure then that would hurt their sales when a game it "a pain to patch" when someone does noteven know where their game is installed).

 

Ooops. Before I get sidetracked and start rambling: if you do not want to risk buying the game from Steam, do not buy it from Steam, if you have a choice. And you do. :blush:

Edited November 26, 2016 by Contrathetix