All video-game Quests are obligatory & irrelevent...

[CalibanX]

I guess this is another reason why I find the TES open world concept so enjoyably re-playable. Being a stubborn sort, when following the predesigned path(s) laid out for me in the constraints of a particular quest, there's always this feeling of being herded or directed to do things in a certain way that keeps reminding me what I have to do to finish the quest: Go here, do this, kill that, go down this tunnel, pull this lever, etc. It's not that it isn't fun, it just feels more obviously directed and I'm just following the trail I'm supposed to take in order to complete the quest objectives.

 

Where as, when I'm out exploring and just encountering things as I discover them, I feel more like I'm the one in control, which ultimately, is just another illusion of course, but having the freedom to make your own character and then just explore a world in any way you want feels more like a genuine exploration & discovery experience than just following quest templates that are more linear, objective driven affairs.

Edited January 7, 2012 by CalibanX

[thesapien]

I'm confused by what you're saying, CalibanX. Much of your discussion makes sense, but your conclusion still seems a bit disconnected for me.

 

A book is perfectly linear, from front to back, word to word (not counting those old "choose your own adventure" books I loved as a kid!).

 

The same device of written words found in a book can also be found in a game. There are books in games or there may be just be text on the screen to read. The virtual medium we call games can incorporate all previous mediums, is more encompassing. The reverse is not true.

 

Books are more passive, cannot adjust to readers, require less personal investment, tell but never ask (excluding rhetorical devices). So maybe what you're saying is that they are great for telling stories of what has already happened (perhaps in just someone's imagination), however, I'd then counter:

 

Do you prefer being told a story or creating and experiencing a story?

[thesapien]

Our favorite stories also have our favorite characters in them. Skyrim is devoid of any fantastic and memorable characters really worthy of interacting with in order to create a new story together. Oh, how I wish Skyrim had some BioWare written characters...

[CalibanX]

A book is linear, but is has no limits on where the author can go (unlike video games which have all manner of technical & financial restraints), so books can tell stories with vast amounts of depth & nuance considering they are often hundreds of pages long. I love reading good books. But when I finish them, I don't start "replaying" them. With video games, especially open-world ones, there is more of an expectation of replaying it with different characters & doing different things than you did previously. In which case, replaying strict, short, narrative quests have less appeal because you've already done them, but the "open" content of the game can still be replayed because it doesn't depend on things like fresh dialogue & unforeseen plot twists.

 

Books are passive, in the sense that they don't have buttons for you to push, but that doesn't mean that they're not intellectually or conceptually challenging. It's not like you hear people say "Hey, I read this great book. It's as good as something you'd find in a video game." Perhaps in the future games will be able to incorporate the kind of depth and nuance you get get from hundreds of pages of text, but I don't think they're quite there yet. And, for the time being, it doesn't bother me that they aren't as long I still get my big world to explore, I'm okay with that.

[thesapien]

Wait, what? How is a game more limited than a book, again? A game can have hundreds of pages of words just like a book. There is no law that says a game can't have books upon books within it, should the creators go that route. Games can use words in place of images. Thus, anything a book can do, so can a game.

 

Replay is a matter of convention. It has nothing to do with the medium. It's a design choice, not a law.

 

Quests are a feature of a specific genre within gaming, also not a law. Personally, I think they should go, at least the formula found in Skyrim should die.

 

Agreed. You'll never hear someone say any book can compare to a great gaming experience.

 

Really, I just think comparing books to gaming is odd. I'm an avid reader of nonfiction in areas of philosophy, science, and just my own general interests but with a history of bias toward those other readers in the English department who saw their fictional works as so important. Thus, you come across as one of those literary elitists to me. Tell me your hardest and most challenging reads, and I'll tell you mine, though mine are not works of fiction.

[FordPerfect]

Agreed. You'll never hear someone say any book can compare to a great gaming experience.

 

You'll hear me say it. In fact I'll say that there's no gaming experience I've ever had that compares with a good book. Some games, like The Witcher, come close to comparing to half-decent short stories. Just sticking with pop-fantasy works similar to TES settings like those in Forgotten Realms or DragonLance there are no game equivalents in terms of story, characters, plot and emotional investment. Granted reading a book requires a lot more imagination than watching a screen and listening to audio from a game. Funny thing, in Morrowind and Oblivion one of my favourite things was the books I could read. Skyrim hasn't expanded the library very much unfortunately.

[Akon2009]

I feel this has gone from talking about the differences of the games, to a verbal duel between Shantih and CalibanX to people plainly trashtalking CalibanX. I would gladly join the fray but the risk of repeating what have been already discussed.

 

Whatever I'll say will be not directed towards neither of those mentioned above since both have made their stances pretty clear.

 

People seem to have forgotten what FordPerfect said some time ago which is quite an interesting idea, arguably possible to do.

 

 

Has anyone here ever made a lengthy quest where every decision made by the player shunted the plot down a different path? With every decision the work involved increases exponentially and not necessarily quadratically either (who likes a constant A or B quest, "yes" or "no").

 

Say X is a juncture in a quest that requires a decision and X_n is one possible course of action.

 

First you can go one of two ways:

 

X₁ or X₂

 

Next for X₁ you can go one of three ways and for X₂ you can go one of four ways:

 

[X₁A or X₁B or X₁C] or [X₂A or X₂B or X₂C or X₂D]

 

Next for X₁A you can go one of two ways, for X₁B you can go one of three ways and for X₁C you can go one of four ways. Also for X₂A you can go one of three ways, for X₂B you can go one of two ways, for X₂C you can go one of four ways and for X₂D you can go one of three ways:

 

[X₁A₁ or X₁A₂] or [X₁B₁ or X₁B₂ or X₁B₃] or [X₁C₁ or X₁C₂ or X₁C₃ or X₁C₄] or [X₂A₁ or X₂A₂ or X₂A₃] or [X₂B₁ or X₂B₂] or [X₂C₁ or X₂C₂ or X₂C₃ or X₂C₄] or [X₂D₁ or X₂D₂ or X₂D₃]

 

or as a tree:

X₁ or X₂

[X₁A or X₁B or X₁C] or [X₂A or X₂B or X₂C or X₂D]

[X₁A₁ or X₁A₂] or [X₁B₁ or X₁B₂ or X₁B₃] or [X₁C₁ or X₁C₂ or X₁C₃ or X₁C₄] or [X₂A₁ or X₂A₂ or X₂A₃] or [X₂B₁ or X₂B₂] or [X₂C₁ or X₂C₂ or X₂C₃ or X₂C₄] or [X₂D₁ or X₂D₂ or X₂D₃]

 

So for a short quest involving 3 decisions each with multiple paths you've got a quest with 30 times the content of a linear quest but which will only show the same amount of it as a linear quest on a single playthrough. 30 times the content means 30 times the work required means 30 times the time required means 30 times the price. So if every quest in Skyrim was similar to my example it would be released in 2156, it would cost $1800 (not accounting for inflation or the destruction of civilization), and it would require the same time to complete every quest as it does now.

 

Just sayin'.. :turned:

 

ETA: There's no replacing a game master - at least not until we get a half-decent AI. :psyduck:

 

While challanging as it is the basic plot itself could be created without too much work even on the second choice. And it would be such an enjoyable game, the replayability would be collosal!

[Astaril]

I feel this has gone from talking about the differences of the games, to a verbal duel between Shantih and CalibanX to people plainly trashtalking CalibanX. I would gladly join the fray but the risk of repeating what have been already discussed.

 

Whatever I'll say will be not directed towards neither of those mentioned above since both have made their stances pretty clear.

 

People seem to have forgotten what FordPerfect said some time ago which is quite an interesting idea, arguably possible to do.

 

 

Has anyone here ever made a lengthy quest where every decision made by the player shunted the plot down a different path? With every decision the work involved increases exponentially and not necessarily quadratically either (who likes a constant A or B quest, "yes" or "no").

 

Say X is a juncture in a quest that requires a decision and X_n is one possible course of action.

 

First you can go one of two ways:

 

X₁ or X₂

 

Next for X₁ you can go one of three ways and for X₂ you can go one of four ways:

 

[X₁A or X₁B or X₁C] or [X₂A or X₂B or X₂C or X₂D]

 

Next for X₁A you can go one of two ways, for X₁B you can go one of three ways and for X₁C you can go one of four ways. Also for X₂A you can go one of three ways, for X₂B you can go one of two ways, for X₂C you can go one of four ways and for X₂D you can go one of three ways:

 

[X₁A₁ or X₁A₂] or [X₁B₁ or X₁B₂ or X₁B₃] or [X₁C₁ or X₁C₂ or X₁C₃ or X₁C₄] or [X₂A₁ or X₂A₂ or X₂A₃] or [X₂B₁ or X₂B₂] or [X₂C₁ or X₂C₂ or X₂C₃ or X₂C₄] or [X₂D₁ or X₂D₂ or X₂D₃]

 

or as a tree:

X₁ or X₂

[X₁A or X₁B or X₁C] or [X₂A or X₂B or X₂C or X₂D]

[X₁A₁ or X₁A₂] or [X₁B₁ or X₁B₂ or X₁B₃] or [X₁C₁ or X₁C₂ or X₁C₃ or X₁C₄] or [X₂A₁ or X₂A₂ or X₂A₃] or [X₂B₁ or X₂B₂] or [X₂C₁ or X₂C₂ or X₂C₃ or X₂C₄] or [X₂D₁ or X₂D₂ or X₂D₃]

 

So for a short quest involving 3 decisions each with multiple paths you've got a quest with 30 times the content of a linear quest but which will only show the same amount of it as a linear quest on a single playthrough. 30 times the content means 30 times the work required means 30 times the time required means 30 times the price. So if every quest in Skyrim was similar to my example it would be released in 2156, it would cost $1800 (not accounting for inflation or the destruction of civilization), and it would require the same time to complete every quest as it does now.

 

Just sayin'.. :turned:

 

ETA: There's no replacing a game master - at least not until we get a half-decent AI. :psyduck:

 

While challanging as it is the basic plot itself could be created without too much work even on the second choice. And it would be such an enjoyable game, the replayability would be collosal!

I may be reading it wrong but I think the point he was trying to make is that this is not do-able (for every quest at least). I whole heartedly agree with you though that if it could it would be awesome! I think it is a good example of why Bethesda do not make multiple decision quests, but it would be nice if one or two could be certainly on the main questline it would be worth the effort.

 

I think you are right about this thread decending into trash talking too, people need to remember that everyone is entitled to an opinion. It was a bold statement by CalibanX, one that opened up an interesting discussion, this is what makes forums great imo but when it goes beyond debate and gets all personal it kinda sucks.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Astaril

[InAComaDial999]

I agree with what FordPrefect said, and it is a good explanation of why linear games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect can seem so much better written than true sandbox games like Skyrim. But that doesn't really excuse some of the issues with Skyrim people are justifiably complaining about. For example, my character is the Harbinger of the Companions. Yet, I still get guards saying "Oh, now I remember... you're that new member of the Companions. What do you do? Fetch the mead?" On the other hand, sometimes I get guards telling me that they are in awe of me because I'm the Harbinger. There's no reason the dialogue conditions can't include a faction level check so that guards don't insult your rank when you reach Harbinger. That specific mechanism exists in Oblivion and there's no technical reason they couldn't do the same in Skyrim. It's just sloppy coding.

[scottym23]

I understand fully what you are saying, and just simply disagree. The entire world of Tamriel and every aspect of it is the basis of a series of "books". Each separate TES game is a new book. Each quest, book, piece of scenery, item, NPC is a new and unique chapter to the story. This is an interactive story that has many outcomes and instead of reading it once and knowing what's going to happen, you can re-read it (replay it) and have a completely different outcome by choosing different options/being a different character. Read a book once, you know what to expect exactly reading it the second time. Play an elder scrolls game a second time, it'll never be entirely the same.