LE Increased Crime Bounties

[Thoragoros]

I have started noticing that getting caught committing a Crime, especially late in the game, is much more of an inconvenience than a real problem. I've never really been afraid of getting caught, because I know that the Bounty will never be more than I can afford to pay off, meaning the only real concern I have when paying my bounty is for any stolen Items I may have to worry about getting back.

 

So, here it is, I was wondering if any can make or knows of a mod that drastically increases the Gold-to-Crime amount.

 

For instance, maybe getting caught stealing something would give the player a Bounty of like a 1000 gold, an assault would rank in at say 400 or 500 gold, and murder something like 5-10000 per hit.

 

I really just want Crime to be a real concern. Not something the player can just shrug off.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Thoragoros

[Thoragoros]

Anyone?

 

Maybe even just a Tutorial? :unsure:

[HatterMaster]

I've noticed the same thing, it really ties in with the whole gold problem TES has, were as an NPC considers a set some a large amount of money, then hands as much to you for a simple task, resulting in you having as much gold as kings are meant to have.

I'd also like a general rebalance of crimes, if I run up to the jarl of solitude and stab her in the face, it costs me less gold than killing a peasants chicken...

[Xeronova]

There are a couple of forum posts invlving the (broken) crime scales in Skyrim, there definitely needs to be a "crime & punishment" mod/overhaul of that system.

[cooltrickle]

I was working on a new system to create bigger fines for crimes. I'll post an excerpt of it below, but I'm come to the conclusion that it's silly to have huge fines. The reason being your character is swimming in gold when most NPCs have about 10 gold on them at most. If an ordinary NPC commited a crime, they could probably never pay the fine and would spend the rest of their life in prison. In contrast the player can just kill people and have no problem paying the fine.

 

A possible answer might just be to reduce the amount of gold in Tamriel. Perhaps limit gold drops to bosses only. In Dragon Age Origins, you had to really work for your gold, by doing side-quests. Special items were available right from the beginning but gold was the issue. Another option would be to remove perks instead of paying a fine. For every 1000 gold you owe, the game will remove a perk from you if you're caught. That will make you think twice!

 

Anyway, here's my rough work for bigger fines, but like I said, I think bigger fines is not really the answer. I wrote this out a few weeks ago, but I've gone off the idea now for reasons I've explained above.

 

Bigger Fines Mod Notes

 

The vanilla fines are incredibly weak. 1000 gold for murder? I need 5000 gold to buy a house, but killing someone only costs 1000 gold? Life is cheap, in Skyrim!

 

I came up with a formula to beef up the fines and create an incentive for criminals not to be caught in the act. Ideally, it will make use of elements that are not in the vanilla game, such as a Karma system that determines whether you are a villain or hero, and how your victim feels about you (before the crime took place, of course! The exception being murder). But, it could be made to work without those elements if necessary.

 

Fine = Base Amount * Crime Modifier * Reputation Modifier * Disposition Modifier

 

Base Amount: 500 gold

Just an arbitrary amount of gold.

 

Crime Modifier: Murder(10), Assault(3), Theft(3), Trespass(2)

Obviously, more serious crimes have larger modifiers. Crime modifiers can stack, except for cases of assault followed by murder. Here, you will only be charged with murder.

 

Reputation Modifier: Evil(1.50), Bad(1.25), Neutral(1.0), Good(0.75), Hero(0.50)

This represents the prejudices of the judicial system against bad people.

 

Disposition Modifier: Despise(1.50), Dislike(1.25), Neutral(1.0), Warm(0.75), Friendly(0.5)

This represents the testimony of the victim of the crime. Having a good relationship with the victim before the crime, will create mitigating circumstances leading to a smaller fine.

 

Of course, all these numbers can be tweaked to find the sweet-spot.

 

Example 1:

 

If you commit the crime of murder with an evil reputation, then the fine you will have to pay is:

 

Fine = 500 * 10 * 1.50 = 7500 gold

 

Example 2:

 

If you commit the crime of murder with a hero reputation, then the fine is:

 

Fine = 500 * 10 * 0.5 = 2500 gold

 

Note: In cases of murder, the victim disposition is not taken into account. Also, there is a 5000 gold difference for the crime of murder depending on whether you are evil or a hero. That's because the law is heavily prejudiced against evil characters but will give the benefit of the doubt to good characters, and adjust the fines accordingly. The monetary difference is a little high for murder, but is likely to be irrelevant, as good characters are not going to be murdering people, anyway. In crimes other than murder, the victim disposition will be a factor.

 

Example 3:

 

If you commit the crime of assault with a bad reputation against someone who is friendly, then the fine is:

 

Fine = 500 * 3 * 1.25 * 0.5 = 950 gold (rounded to the nearest 50)

 

Note: Unlike murder, the dispostion of the victim is taken into account. In this case, you may have accidentally hit an ally, but the guards still consider this a crime. Your friend will put in a good word for you and will get your fine reduced. If the victim of assault was not friendly but instead actually despised you, the last modifier would have been 1.50, making the fine 2850 gold. Big difference, but that's what you get if you're bad and you hit people that hate your guts!

[Thoragoros]

While I like a lot of what you're saying, and while I like the prospect of 'limiting gold,' I find that it has less to do with 'gold drops' by enemies and much more to do with the fact that even generic-enchanted material and mid-high range potions are vastly overvalued. For instance, I can take two very cheap, commonly found ingredients from the swamps around Morthal, and wtih a high enough Alchemy skill create a potion worth several-hundred gold. I can do similar things with the Enchanting perk.

 

Values on such Items need to be dropped. OR gold that merchants carry could be reduced to just a few hundred septims a run?

 

On the other hand, talking solely about the Crime System, I really don't think the gold NPCs carry around with them should factor into this kind of mod, because lets face it, the 'Crime System' is meant/utilized solely for the player, who typically has a large amount of gold just a couple of hours into a game.

 

As far as the reputation modifier, maybe a good idea. One question, what happens if your career Thief who just enver happened to get caught? Does that mean you have a Hero level reputation on your first capture?

Edited January 8, 2012 by Thoragoros

[cooltrickle]

While I like a lot of what you're saying, and while I like the prospect of 'limiting gold,' I find that it has less to do with 'gold drops' by enemies and much more to do with the fact that even generic-enchanted material and mid-high range potions are vastly overvalued.

 

True. I suppose I was approaching the problem from my point of view. Most of my gold does come from what I find. I tend not to loot anything except gems, and gold. I was thinking of creating breakable weapons, that may break as they age. They don't need to be repaired but as the weapon condition degrades the chance of it breaking increases. Once broken, it's gone forever. The fact that nothing breaks in the game is part of the reason why the player has so much gold there is nothing to replace or maintain. Even soul gems can be filled for free!

 

You could also link weapon value to weapon age. This would mean most of the stuff you loot from bodies would be low value due to damage or age. I think this would be a believable and fair way of lowering the value of items. If the player found an ebony dagger and it was worth 100 gold, the player might balk at that. But, if the player could see that the weapon is old, it would be acceptable to make it worth far less than a brand new dagger. Basically, there are lots of little things like this which would enrich the game.

 

On the other hand, talking solely about the Crime System, I really don't think the gold NPCs carry around with them should factor into this kind of mod, because lets face it, the 'Crime System' is meant/utilized solely for the player, who typically has a large amount of gold just a couple of hours into a game.

 

 

That's exactly the problem; it's too obvious that NPCs don't participate in the economy. Everything is just set up for the benefit of the player, and this spoils the game for me. There needs to be a real economy in place that is driven by demand and not supply. Just because I have 10 enchanted daggers or 50 Dwemer bows, doesn't mean the merchant wants them! By being able to spam the merhants at will, the player is so rich you have to have silly prices for items, which makes you wonder how an ordinary NPC can even afford to eat! :biggrin: It breaks the immersion, as some people say.

 

As far as the reputation modifier, maybe a good idea. One question, what happens if your career Thief who just enver happened to get caught? Does that mean you have a Hero level reputation on your first capture?

 

Being a thief is bad. Karma knows even if nobody else does. As long as you balance the bad with the good, you will have a neutral reputation, which has no effect on the fine. Remember, in Skyrim, if you help NPCs, they do give you some things for free. I think there is less need for stealing in Skyrim, as least for basic items. So a thief shouldn't struggle too much to maintain a hero reputation. In this case the deciding factor will be your relationship with the victim. Once arrested, people will know you are a thief; this will affect their disposition towards you in a small way, and so future crimes may result in bigger fines.

 

My system was just a rough draft. I've lost interest in it, as I think there are better ways to improve game balance, as far as gold is concerned. The calculation for the fine needs a couple more factors, like a "smoothing modifier", to deal with the overly large difference in fines for evil and hero reputation. Also, a "victim reputation modifier". High status victims will bring the full force of the law down on you.

 

I've actually turned my attention to an Artificers Guild idea. The basic concept is a merchant who acts likes a guild master. He has contacts that will allow the player to produce goods for his export business. In order to develop the skills required in Smithing, Alchemy, and Enchanting, the player will take on an apprentice role for masters in those skills. They will guide you from novice to master. Once you become an apprentice, you cannot level up your crafting skill as normal. You must complete specific tasks for your master, to earn skill points. With this system, it's impossible to become a master smith by crafting 1000 iron daggers! It's not for everyone, but if you want to feel like you've earned your master status, this should work.

 

There are other points as well, but the overall effect will be to make gold less relevant in the game. If you can't satisfy the demand, you will struggle to make gold by crafting. The merchant will just refuse to buy things he doesn't want!

[cooltrickle]

I really just want Crime to be a real concern. Not something the player can just shrug off.

 

I'll share some more of my notes here, rather than make a new thread. I hope you don't think I'm hijacking your thread but I think there may be better/more interesting ways of making crime "a real concern". Try shrugging off 7 lashes, sneak-thief! :biggrin:

 

Mod Notes: Flogging and other alternatives to fines

 

Life is cheap in Skyrim! You can kill anyone you want provided they're not "essential", and the jingle-jangle of your coin-purse is the chorus of 1000 septims.

 

Now, 1000 septims is not a trivial amount of gold for an NPC. However, I laugh at such a paltry amount. If I had the option, I would give an NPC, 1000 septims, and say "Go on, kill anyone you want. It's on me!". In fact that's not a bad idea...

 

Anyway, the point is that paying a fine is no big deal. It makes punishment trivial, and increasing the fine is just silly. So, in the interests of being constructive, the player gets flogged instead of paying a fine or in addition to a fine.

 

The number of lashes is determined by the severity of the crime. Here's how it might look:

 

3 lashes - Trepass and Assault

7 lashes - Theft

14 lashes - Murder

 

(The numbers are just for illustration/tweak-friendly)

 

After being flogged you will suffer an active effect for the same number of days as the lashes received. I'm going to be really nasty and insist that the active effect disables the wait and sleep menus. I imagine flogging hurts... a lot. In fact, it probably hurts so much you'll probably need to buy (not make) expensive ointments and bandages to mitigate the active effect. Mitigate not neutralize. The application of the ointment will bestow it's own active effect or alter that of the flogging, and which could possibly allow you to sleep for short periods.

 

The ointment is optional, but if you don't use it, the severity of the active affect of flogging will be worse. The cost of ointment and bandages would make the need for a fine unnecessary. As for what the active effect actually is, let's hear your suggestions. Any suggestion followed by (m), means it can be mitigated by ointment or bandages; © means cannot be mitigated.

 

My suggestions are:

 

Flogging Active Effects

 

No health regen © - the body is already healing your wounds

Can't wear heavy armour (m) - putting heavy armour over wounds is too painful, without bandages

Can't get rested bonuses © - pain makes sleep unsatisfying, even if you use ointment to sleep

Can't sleep (m) - pain keeps you awake

Can't wait © - everyone would just wait for a week or two!

Damage penalty (m) - flexing your back is painful, this should reduce performance, ointment soothes the pain a little

 

Ointment Active Effects

 

Later Enemy detection © - anything that soothes pain would make you less alert, sleepy

 

****

 

Another alternative to fines is to confiscate perks from the player. The perks will be returned after a period of probation, doing quests for the hold.