Imperials not really an option

[Moredhel]

I was replying to you, did a copy and hit F5 to see if anything new has been posted and saw your edit. Guess I won't reply because of the offtopicness :)

 

I just want to see some equality on racism. Back at middle school (I guess it's highschool in the USA, where you are about 13 to 16 or older when you attend it?) a Mexican dude wore a Brown Power patch on his backpack, that was seen as ok. A Nigerian dude had a patch which said "Black Power", that was seen as ok. A Dutch dude (just like me, I'm Dutch) scratched his head and put a White Power patch on his backpack. Everyone got mad at him, the mexican and nigerian dudes shouted RACIST!!!! and the guy got expelled. Talk about double standards, eh? Either allow all or ban all imho...

 

^ this wasn't my initial reply but I wanted to type this just as an example.

 

Now let's all go back to Empire vs Stormcloaks vs Thalmor, shall we? :D

[Feanoro]

I like how people keep calling the Nords racists and only have praise for the Empire. Do you know who the Empire behave as? Muslim fundamentalists. That's right: believe in this or we chop your head off. Or worse, we let the Thalmor torture you for a few weeks before they kill you. And the proof for this is the quest you get from Avulstein Gray-Mane to save his brother.

 

Does Tullius sign an order to spring him out of Thalmor jail? No, not even if you're high up yourself in the Imperial ranks (I kept trying to do this in my first playthrough and eventually got bored of his refusals and just cleared Northwatch Keep).

 

Furthermore, under the Empire's "loving" rule, you now have Thalmor prisons in Skyrim! To which random people get carted off without so much as a word of protest from your loving Imperials. Clearly the Empire is in no shape to fight the Thalmor anytime soon.

 

How can you believe the Empire will fight back when all that's been happening since the Great War is the Thalmor getting them to back down and give out more and more, 1 province at a time? Heck, the Emperor is so weak he can't even keep his Elder Council in check (by the way, apparently Amaund Motierre's family is an ancient Breton family, that suggests High Rock isn't very happy with the Empire these days either...).

 

 

Now the Stormcloaks and Ulfric have their faults, to be sure. Does Ulfric want power? Sure. Who doesn't, anyway? The question is will Skyrim be better off with him as High King instead of listening to the Empire? They definitely will: whatever else you say about Ulfric, he will NEVER bend to the will of the Thalmor. He knows what being tortured by them feels like, he knows it's way better to die for what you believe in than becoming a slave to the elves.

 

Can Skyrim by itself defeat the Aldmeri Dominion? I don't know. Most people say there is no way they can, but let's not forget that Talos, a Nord, created the Empire in just this fashion. What I can tell you is that the Empire is completely unable to fend of the Thalmor anymore. Heck, it seems wrong calling it an Empire nowadays...they betrayed and abandoned Hammerfell, which now fights successfully alone against the Thalmor (in a way that Skyrim could very well do as well), they apparently were forced to drop Black Marsh and Elsweyr as well, of which the former has now turned to its own invasions and if the Amaund Motierre whispers are to be believed, High Rock isn't happy with the Imperials either.

 

So really, who exactly is left?

 

The way to fight the Thalmor, it seems, is as a coalition of provinces each with their own armies and rulers, more a kind of Federated State than an Empire.

 

And as for Skyrim, if you look at what happens in TESV, it's not doing that badly: with the Civil War resolved, the Dragonborn seems to have found new allies for whoever his friends are. After all, I'm pretty sure the dragons wouldn't mind a little flyover to the Summerset Isles:D.

 

As for the Stormcloaks being racists, that's not exactly true. What you actually SEE in the game are NORDS being racist. Oh yes, it's not like Stormcloak soldiers sit around a bonfire and plan to kill random Argonians/Dunmer/Khajiit/Bretons/Redguards. I know, cause I sat around that bonfire with my troops and listened to them. They just want to kick the Empire and the Thalmor out of Skyrim and govern themselves once more.

 

And who can blame them for it?

 

As for the Markarth incident, the Forsworn are CERTAINLY not a model to follow. First of all there's no right or wrong in who is supposed to rule the Reach. Both the Forsworn and the Nords have been living in that border area. Mostly the Nords have ruled in the Reach and the Forsword were very unhappy about that. So what did they do? When the Nords were giving their lives to fight off the Thalmor, opressors that deeply hate ALL the races of man, they attacked Markarth and took temporary control of it. Ulfric won it back from them in a straight up war so now the Forsworn have encamped themselves in Redoubts and are given to banditry and murder of the innocent.

 

Are these the people you want to support?

[Taran0]

The Redguards did the right thing and threw the traitorous Empire out.

 

But then, they are black so their nationalism isn't called racism. That only applies to white Nords.

'tis sad, but this also applies to real life where only white people can be racists :\

 

absolutly, black people can do or say things extremely racists and its ok but a white person is inmediatly the worst guy or girl in earth for a minor thing, for instance that "professor" that said they need to exterminate white people and still black people defended him (!!!) and apparently they are "justified" and its not racist. As true and absurd as this is, how did we end up talking about this lol.

 

Edit: just to clarify i dont like white racism at all im just saying it would be good if blacks and other races would also be considered racists when they do or say extremely racist things on a daily basis like all the time. Anyway this is way off topic.

 

I don't like this whole hassle going on about racism anyways. Racism is simply something natural. Almost everyone (even though most won't admit it) are racists on some level.

I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, but it's simply natural for people to prefer their own kind over others.

This doesn't mean that everone wants to commit hate crimes, but I'll bet when it comes down to it, most would rather live in a nice area among their own,

rather than an equally nice area among people of races differing from their own.

 

Of course, it's going too far if people want to harm other people because they are different.

[Dukkah]

You know what the Nords act like? Like they live in a feudal society.

 

You know what the Empire acts like? Like they live in a feudal society.

 

The point isn't to judge them based on our standards, because that will only lead to disappointment at every turn. The point is to follow the logic by which they live to the end: whether Empire or Nord, problems in the era depicted are solved by the blade. You do not "tolerate" your enemy, as you wouldn't tolerate someone trying to kill you or rob you. You end him, because it's the logical conclusion of the presupposition that he is your enemy.

[Moredhel]

Do you know who the Empire behave as? Muslim fundamentalists. That's right: believe in this or we chop your head off. Or worse, we let the Thalmor torture you for a few weeks before they kill you

Bro, the Thalmor are the muslim fundamentalists here, they forced the empire to sign the concordat and banish Talos worship. Next, the Thalmor are rumored to kidnap and kill random people, but this is not known to the Empire's rulers...

[minngarm]

Dont mistake all the stormcloaks as being racist, infact they are not for the most part. They are nationalists. They want their land, their home for their people, They are tired of being pushed around by the Empire, which from what I've seen in Skyrim, is nothing more than a Thalmor puppet state. Yes of course some of them like some of every group, are infact racist. However do not forget that in the Elder Scrolls world, race determines nationality still, and thus is hard to determine the difference between the two.

 

There was a time when that was the case in the real world as well, and you and I may think of such things as racist, but in reallity it was not, it was Nationalist.

[faifh]

I like how people keep calling the Nords racists and only have praise for the Empire. Do you know who the Empire behave as? Muslim fundamentalists. That's right: believe in this or we chop your head off. Or worse, we let the Thalmor torture you for a few weeks before they kill you. And the proof for this is the quest you get from Avulstein Gray-Mane to save his brother.

 

Hold ya horses. The empire has its flaws, but I don't see the analogy to "muslim fundamentalists". If the empire is most like victorian great britain. Lots of colonies, producing lots of wealth in trading with the colonies, some independence, but at the end they have to answer to throne. The throne takes the larger part of the mutual created wealth.

 

Does Tullius sign an order to spring him out of Thalmor jail? No, not even if you're high up yourself in the Imperial ranks (I kept trying to do this in my first playthrough and eventually got bored of his refusals and just cleared Northwatch Keep).

 

I suppose there is some game error, there is -no- diplomatic way whatsoevery, beside the quest telling you so. The imperial order even exists as ID, but no way is known to console-less obtain it, or it doesn't work. Seems the devs just didn't find time to do that :(

 

Furthermore, under the Empire's "loving" rule, you now have Thalmor prisons in Skyrim! To which random people get carted off without so much as a word of protest from your loving Imperials. Clearly the Empire is in no shape to fight the Thalmor anytime soon.

 

Its bad yes, but the conclusion they do not have a way to fight is wrong. A strong tree also bends in the wind you know...

 

Now the Stormcloaks and Ulfric have their faults, to be sure. Does Ulfric want power? Sure. Who doesn't, anyway? The question is will Skyrim be better off with him as High King instead of listening to the Empire? They definitely will: whatever else you say about Ulfric, he will NEVER bend to the will of the Thalmor. He knows what being tortured by them feels like, he knows it's way better to die for what you believe in than becoming a slave to the elves.

 

Did you overread his plans to first conquer the empire? Ulfric does not only want to be High King of Skyrim, he wants to be emperor. Now thats a way to launch all of the empire in a civil war if he gets his way. Also jumping far to say "becoming slaves".

 

Can Skyrim by itself defeat the Aldmeri Dominion? I don't know. Most people say there is no way they can, but let's not forget that Talos, a Nord, created the Empire in just this fashion. What I can tell you is that the Empire is completely unable to fend of the Thalmor anymore. Heck, it seems wrong calling it an Empire nowadays...they betrayed and abandoned Hammerfell, which now fights successfully alone against the Thalmor (in a way that Skyrim could very well do as well), they apparently were forced to drop Black Marsh and Elsweyr as well, of which the former has now turned to its own invasions and if the Amaund Motierre whispers are to be believed, High Rock isn't happy with the Imperials either.

 

Again, Ulfric plans with Skyrim to attack the empire ... quite a different position than Hammerfell fighting on its own...

 

The way to fight the Thalmor, it seems, is as a coalition of provinces each with their own armies and rulers, more a kind of Federated State than an Empire.

 

Yes, like written before, Great Britain and its common wealth in the 19th century.

 

As for the Stormcloaks being racists, that's not exactly true. What you actually SEE in the game are NORDS being racist. Oh yes, it's not like Stormcloak soldiers sit around a bonfire and plan to kill random Argonians/Dunmer/Khajiit/Bretons/Redguards. I know, cause I sat around that bonfire with my troops and listened to them. They just want to kick the Empire and the Thalmor out of Skyrim and govern themselves once more.

 

Well racism is not just "killing" (it only boils eventually down if continued). Yes, most nords have a tendency, thats why Ulfric is able to create his uprising first place, without it, nobody would follow him anyway. After all Winterhelm is the worst city. Gray Quarters for Dark Elves, Argonians may not even enter the city. Free-Winter complaining about Ulfric caring about Bandit problems if and only if they target Nords. etc. Neither does Ulfric seem to care also about for example a murderer roaming his town.

BTW: I love it when you meet him in Soovengard if he is killed before you get there, first I said, I have to kill him another time? But he is completly crestfallen, seeing that both imperials and stormcloaks are there united just to be devoured by alduin, and his whole rebellion was senseless. I left him with his newly gained insights

 

[faifh]

Dont mistake all the stormcloaks as being racist, infact they are not for the most part. They are nationalists. They want their land, their home for their people, They are tired of being pushed around by the Empire, which from what I've seen in Skyrim, is nothing more than a Thalmor puppet state. Yes of course some of them like some of every group, are infact racist. However do not forget that in the Elder Scrolls world, race determines nationality still, and thus is hard to determine the difference between the two.

 

There was a time when that was the case in the real world as well, and you and I may think of such things as racist, but in reallity it was not, it was Nationalist.

 

If nation and race is the same, than nationalism and racism is the more or less the same too. I don't think there actually are much of "nations" in Tamriel anyway. Also in real world nation is a relative new concept from somewhere 1700 onward. There is no defined citizenship I'm aware of in Skyrim, so there is not much of a nationality.

 

Windhelm definitely segregates people by their skin color, fur or scales, giving them less pay, less rights or less protection, just because of their race. So by all means this is racism. Free-Winter is the only stormcloak I met that actively opposes is, and is thus an honorable men. No surprise he is made Jarl of Windhelm once you win the Imperial Campaign.

[Lessabos]

I dont understand why everybody thinks that Thalmor would invade Skyrim if Stormcloaks would win war.

 

1. First of all they dont share border

 

2. What would Thalmor gain if they would invade Skyrim? They will surely conquer all cities and forts but still countryside is made for guerrila warfare , look at Forsword at Reach

 

3. Ulfric Skyrim would suit better as a neutral state which will be at war with Empire , so Empire would have to spare troops to guard borders with Skyrim

 

So as a result Skyrim is as interesting for a conquest as Black March for Aldmeri Dominion

[faifh]

3. Ulfric Skyrim would suit better as a neutral state which will be at war with Empire , so Empire would have to spare troops to guard borders with Skyrim

 

Exactly, Skyrim and Empire would continue to be in war with each other, mutually binding resources and losing lives on both sides, while the Thalmor eat up the rest of the Empire, instead of Skyrim and Empire jointly putting that resources against them.