Ulfric Stormcloaks Victory Speech (Solitude)

[chanchan05]

Let recap...

Imperials and High Elves Kidnap, Torture and Execute people without trials based on a persons Race. Have you seen any other Race other than Nords being Executed? being Kidnapped? Tortured? With no trial and no evidence of anything. Heck you even have 2 Men Taunting and Old Women because her son choose to join the Stormcloaks in Whiterun. Saying he deserved Death.

Ulfric has a bunch of Dark Elf refugees living in his city. Granted he is apathetic towards them but they aint living in a Thalmor Prison or on the Tundra.

 

And Ulfric is the bad guy?

 

The Imperials do not capture, torture, or execute anyone, that is SOLELY a Thalmor operation.

 

Secondly several high ranking Imperial people including General Tullis know Talos worshipers and don't report them, because not even the Empire's own soldiers and politicians follow the White-Gold concordant.

 

Sorry for the double post but, ^^^ This was your original post was it not? If you would read the one I quoted you will note that no changes have been made. These are your words not mine. Just because you think your argument is bad does not mean you can accuse me of "Warping".

 

Sorry but from my viewpoint you were warping what he said. You were taking him out of context. He was replying to the allegation that the Imperials were accusied of torturing, capturing and executing worshippers of Talos, to which they absolutely do not, as that is solely a Thalmor operation. As for Imperials doing that to Stormcloaks, that is completely different since they are at war with each other.

 

Basically, taking his words OUT OF CONTEXT allowed you to warp his meaning to suit your argument.

[terzho]

Let recap...

Imperials and High Elves Kidnap, Torture and Execute people without trials based on a persons Race. Have you seen any other Race other than Nords being Executed? being Kidnapped? Tortured? With no trial and no evidence of anything. Heck you even have 2 Men Taunting and Old Women because her son choose to join the Stormcloaks in Whiterun. Saying he deserved Death.

Ulfric has a bunch of Dark Elf refugees living in his city. Granted he is apathetic towards them but they aint living in a Thalmor Prison or on the Tundra.

 

And Ulfric is the bad guy?

 

Was this the allegation that the imperials tortured Talos worshippers? As you can see there is no mention of Talos worshippers. Just Nords in general. Show me when did anyone ever say that Talos worshippers were being tortured by the Empire.

[Linsolv]

Let recap...

Imperials and High Elves Kidnap, Torture and Execute people without trials based on a persons Race. Have you seen any other Race other than Nords being Executed? being Kidnapped? Tortured? With no trial and no evidence of anything. Heck you even have 2 Men Taunting and Old Women because her son choose to join the Stormcloaks in Whiterun. Saying he deserved Death.

Ulfric has a bunch of Dark Elf refugees living in his city. Granted he is apathetic towards them but they aint living in a Thalmor Prison or on the Tundra.

 

And Ulfric is the bad guy?

 

The Imperials do not capture, torture, or execute anyone, that is SOLELY a Thalmor operation.

 

Secondly several high ranking Imperial people including General Tullis know Talos worshipers and don't report them, because not even the Empire's own soldiers and politicians follow the White-Gold concordant.

 

Sorry for the double post but, ^^^ This was your original post was it not? If you would read the one I quoted you will note that no changes have been made. These are your words not mine. Just because you think your argument is bad does not mean you can accuse me of "Warping".

 

Sorry but from my viewpoint you were warping what he said. You were taking him out of context. He was replying to the allegation that the Imperials were accusied of torturing, capturing and executing worshippers of Talos, to which they absolutely do not, as that is solely a Thalmor operation. As for Imperials doing that to Stormcloaks, that is completely different since they are at war with each other.

 

Basically, taking his words OUT OF CONTEXT allowed you to warp his meaning to suit your argument.

Bolded and red for emphasis. The first words were not "because of a person's religion," but "because of a person's race." Therefor, the accusation is that they may or may not arrest Talos worshippers, THAT IS NOT ADDRESSED by the first post in this little thread. He's not taking anything out of context.

 

For fun, let's color-code things. Red for discussions of religion, blue for discussions of race, and purple for non-specific statements or actions.

The point raised by PapaWill is "Imperials only capture/torture/kill Nords [other than the player, whose race is impossible to specify]"

Sajuukkhar's response is "Only Thalmor capture/torture/kill anyone." However, since he's responding DIRECTLY to the previous statement, we'll call it BLUE.

Terzho comes along and says "I have evidence of people [specifically Nords] being killed by the empire."

Sajuukkhar's response is "1. You are not a Talos worshipper; 2. Nords are the enemy in a war; 3. Only Thalmor capture/torture/kill Talos worshippers; 4. All points I have made are valid if looked at logically."

 

Point 4 just can't be true. As you can see (from this explanation which I think you will find is quite simple to follow, and as complete as can be possible given that PapaWill did not quote any particular post) the line of argumentation clearly follows race until Sajuukkhar's second post. If anyone twisted words, it was Sajuukkhar's first post, which is the only time that an interpretation of religious persecution can be made in this particular line of posts.

 

Of course there were other concurrent or earlier posts that discussed Thalmor oppression of Talos worshipers and religious persecution, so one can be excused for thinking this conversation would follow the same line, but it didn't. A response based on the understanding that the quote pyramid was based on a discussion of race is in line with the argument, not twisting.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Linsolv

[Feanoro]

^Yay for color-coding. So I think we've established that the Imperials have no issue with torture, although it's true they seem to only be doing it on the Stormcloaks in Skyrim.

 

However, if you remember the "Missing in Action" quest, Tullius is well aware of the Thalmor kidnapping people (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_Missive_(Battle-Born)) but he simply doesn't have the cojones to even help rescue ONE prisoner from the Thalmor, no matter how much you've helped the Empire personally (I've tried at various stages during the Imperial questline to get him to help me, but he never did. The wikis state it's not possible to get Tullius' help at any Speech level or completion rate).

 

I don't really see the point in aiding an Empire that allows a foreign power to come to your home and persecute you for your religious beliefs.

[terzho]

^^^ -_- do I really have to explain again lol...............the imperials do have an issue with torture.......at the start of the game with the dungeons and the torturer. Although the argument kind of got carried away because others decided to bring Talos and the Thalmor into it.

[sajuukkhar9000]

^Yay for color-coding. So I think we've established that the Imperials have no issue with torture, although it's true they seem to only be doing it on the Stormcloaks in Skyrim.

 

However, if you remember the "Missing in Action" quest, Tullius is well aware of the Thalmor kidnapping people (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Imperial_Missive_(Battle-Born)) but he simply doesn't have the cojones to even help rescue ONE prisoner from the Thalmor, no matter how much you've helped the Empire personally (I've tried at various stages during the Imperial questline to get him to help me, but he never did. The wikis state it's not possible to get Tullius' help at any Speech level or completion rate).

 

I don't really see the point in aiding an Empire that allows a foreign power to come to your home and persecute you for your religious beliefs.

 

You have to remember the situation.

 

After The Battle of the Red Ring, The Empire had reclaimed The Imperial City but with the cost of losing almost all their forces. the very best Legions were only at 50% and most of Cyrdoill had been burned. On the oher hand The Thalmor had a greater number of forces left, and The Dominion's lands were relatively untouched. It would have been suicide to keep the war going.

 

Titus Mede II signed the WGC concordant to give The Empire time to rebuild so they could attack The Thalmor again. All people had to do was wait it out for awhile while The Empire got its s*** straight, then the WGC would have been repealed and the Empire would have attacked The Thalmor again.

[Feanoro]

I'm sure that's what Titus Mede II wanted in theory. However, the Empire did more than just sign a treaty. They practically allowed the Thalmor to freely kidnap and torture Imperial citizens without any Imperial opposition. Thus, the Empire has de facto become, at least partially, the very same oppressive regime they fought against.

 

Ok, let me slightly ammend that, we're not sure if this happens exclusively in Skyrim or all over the Empire (correct me if I missed some relevant info about this). In either case, Skyrim has every right to rebel against religious persecution and since the Empire not only does not support this act of rebellion but opposes it militarily, the Empire becomes the natural enemy of Skyrim along with the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

There are arguments to be made that a united Empire is better positioned to defeat the Aldmeri Dominion. This is true, but the Empire is NO LONGER united and NO LONGER a state that inspires people to enlist in its Legions to help defend it. In the time of Skyrim it's just another oppressive entity. Not as bad as the Aldmeri Dominion can be, to be sure, but no longer something worth fighting for.

 

As for the Stormcloaks, they fight for their freedom from the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion. They believe an independent Skyrim will be a freer and more prosperous Skyrim. On the other hand, the Stormcloaks are composed of mostly veteran former Imperial soldiers and other Nords dissatisfied with the Empire. As such, the only way they know of to achieve their goals is through strength and fighting.

 

I love the discussion between Ulfric and Galmar when you first meet them in the Palace of Kings, which he ends saying "we fight because we must". The Nord way is conquest through strength and this is what Ulfric does. Is he power hungry? Sure, he wants to be High King and I'm sure part of him thinks he deserves it. So did Caesar and Augustus in Rome. While they both had their faults, Rome reached a Golden Age in their time.

 

A better parallel to draw is with TES history, in which many great things started with a conquering army of Nords, whether it was the reconquista of Skyrim or other lands. And the memory of those great things also tells us that a unified Nord front has a great potential against any opponent.

[sajuukkhar9000]

The Empire is only fractured because Ulfric is a dumbass who cant sit down for a minute and learn to get over it.

 

If the Empire wins the war, and takes a couple more years to rebuild they would be ready to attack the dominion. Hammerfell may no longer be a part of the Empire but if The Empire started attacking The Dominion The Reguards would most likely help the empire.

[Feanoro]

No, the Empire is fractured because it allows its citizens to be oppressed by the Thalmor. One man alone (and Ulfric is just a man, he can do some Shouts, it's true, but there's not much more to him) can't destroy an Empire. The Stormcloaks would have barely any recruits if it were all about Ulfric. It's not, it's about Nords being persecuted by the Thalmor under the ignoring eye of the Empire.

 

Not only that but after the Hammerfell episode, the Empire can't be trusted to act in the best interests of its provinces, which is why Skyrim decides to secede from it.

 

As for the Empire's fighting capacity what you said is 100% conjecture, and ignores the fact that quite a number of years have passed since the White-Gold Concordat and the Empire doesn't look much better for it and in fact doesn't even have the muscle to keep the Thalmor from leaving ITS OWN citizens in peace, nevermind fighting back successfully.

[faifh]

It's not, it's about Nords being persecuted by the Thalmor under the ignoring eye of the Empire.

 

Bah, Talos as One of the Nine is worshipped in the whole Empire, in Crycodill (Oblivion) I constantly meet Talos worshippers all over the place. So to say the "Nord are presecuted" is quite blown. Only the rest of the empire realizes its a necessary evil to not have been overrun right away and be slaves. Its only Stormclock and his Stormcloak followers just act like strong nord warriors is all just show. In their core they are just whinebabies that got their pants more easily in a twist about this than anyone else, that lived quite well with "don't show, don't tell" and worshipped Talos in their private quarters instead (inkluding Legate Rikki or Balgruuf the Greater, etc.)

Edited January 20, 2012 by faifh