faifh Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 There is no way to argue people out of religious beliefs. The Thalmor believe that Talos is not a god. The Nords of Skyrim cherish him as one of their most honored gods. So no discussion is possible. People never change unless they want to. So the political questions are just sort of a sideshow, and the real issue is religion. Not really, once again religion is only the excuse and a way to rally the masses, not the cause by itself. The causes are otherwhere, otherwise for both could simply live happily ever after with just a little more tolerance. What does the dominion actually care whom these guys far away pray to in their mountain halls? What to the Nords care what the elves think of Talos on their far away isle? Dominion wants world domination or something like that, and Ulfric wants power and is the usual example of a narcistic personality disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justwannaddl Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Religion should not be discounted in TES. Don't forget that the whole point of Oblivion was the Mythic Dawn was a Dagon cult bent on bringing their god to Nirn. The Thalmor hate and fear Talos because he destroyed the Aldmeri Dominion the first time around. It may not be their primary goal but they want him gone. I honestly do not know what to think of Ulfric. You really can't take any info given about him at face value and he really doesn't talk to the player enough to confirm or deny the more negative aspects attributed to him by others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faifh Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 You really can't take any info given about him at face value and he really doesn't talk to the player enough to confirm or deny the more negative aspects attributed to him by others. Delusion? I don't have any reason to mistrust Free-Winter, the Thalmor dossier you find. And actually he told me to face his plans to first conquer the empire, and then the dominion (during the imperial questline) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclericp Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Thats propaganda...dont believe everything you hear, especially not from Ulfric 'stormcloak' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justwannaddl Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 For a clandestine organization, especially one built on lies the way the Thalmor was, it is easy enough to place misinformation even in internal documents. The general rule of thumb in TES is that nothing written is 100% trustworthy except perhaps the elder scrolls when it talks of the past. As for any intentions to take over the empire or destroy the Thalmor, I don't see that as very negative. The empire really is weak and ineffectual after Oblivion and the Thalmor are scum. The accusations about his personal racism and the details about his involvement in Markarth are the subjects I am concerned about. Were the Forsworn good and peaceful natives or were they already the blood thirsty demon worshipers we are so familiar with when Ulfric drove them out? Does Ulfric ignore non-nord caravans because he doesn't care or because he doesn't have the resources to protect more than his own people? Did the empire betray Ulfric or was it a setup by the Thalmor to weaken the Empire? TES, as usual, doesn't definitively answer these sort of questions, at least in this installment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chanchan05 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I took my sweet time choosing a side, joining the Imperial Legion at level 47. Things that led to my decision: 1. The Forsworn were in a peaceful state and were already negotiating with the Empire to be recognized as a separate kingdom/province when Ulfric suddenly came on a rampage. 2. And the dossier saying Ulfric is a Thalmor asset, albeit reluctant. In other words, he is a Thalmor spy. How difficult could it be to convince a power hungry guy? What if.... Thalmor: Hey prisoner, do you want to be king of a Skyrim without the Empire? Ulfric: I'm listeningThalmor: We don't really like you worshipping Talos, but you seem to really like it. We're winning the war, so if we win, will impose a ban on Talos worship...Ulfric: You sons of ....Thalmor: We'd like you to start a rebellion in Skyrim. Then we crush the empire from North and South. You rule the North and worship wheoever you like, then we get the South.Ulfric: Deal. 3. The Khajit caravan story. When I was in Windhelm, some guy told me of the story of two caravans set upon by bandits. One was a Nord caravan, which the soldiers saved. The Khajit caravan was well, the Stormcloaks watched from the walls as the bandits attacked them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faifh Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 For a clandestine organization, especially one built on lies the way the Thalmor was, it is easy enough to place misinformation even in internal documents. The general rule of thumb in TES is that nothing written is 100% trustworthy except perhaps the elder scrolls when it talks of the past. Never supposed to see anything written as 100% trustworthy, but considering the way you obtained those documents, its very unplausible to been set up, so a guest that sneaks out of the party killing a dozend elfs finds this forged documents. Give me a break :) No, Ulfric is an asset to the Thalmor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ufw7 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Do we have a speech from general tullius? (Still didn't decided wich side I'm for :P) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faifh Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I appologize for unexactness, tabbing in and out of Skyrim is quite a hassle for me: Tullius: The rebellion is over. Ulfric Stormcloak is dead.Soldiers: Yeaaahh!!!Tullius: His head will be sent to Cyrodill, where it will adown a spike on the wall of the imperial city.Let this day be a warning for all those who still call themselves Stormcloaks.We are turning this city over the Burnwic Free-Winter. A honorable and faithful man.Many of you will be staying in Wildhelm to aid the jarl in restoring order and stamping out any ambers of rebellion that may still smolder here.In appreciation of your exemplary service I am doubling your pay and compensations to the widows of your fallen comrades.Soldiers: Huaaaah!Tullius: I'm proud of all of you!All hail the emperor. All hail the legionaires!Soldiers: Yaaahe! (Following in lower voice to you) Tullius: I hate giving speeches.Legate Riki: It wasn't so bad.Tullius: I hope we just haven't created a martyr.Legate Riki: There is bound to be resistance there are many stormcloak camps tucked away in the hills.They'll no doubt strike whereever and whenever they can.But without Ulfric to enflame their passions, they'll settle down and return to their homes eventually.Tullius: I pray your right, LegateIn the meantime we will continue to route them out and put them to the sword.(turns to you again) We couldn't have done this without you. The empire glories in your accomplishmentsCome Rika, there is still much to be done. - both walk off screen - You can talk with both as they wander of the map. They'll send you to kill the remaining stormcloak camps. But they weren't hostile to me, so I didn't. They just give you pissed lines when you stamper through one of their camps. Tullius also says, he is happy to finally have peace restored again with the Nords, but he isn't so sure about the Thalmor. I wonder someone posted when Ulfric wins, they something about "cleaning Skyrim from the lesser races", yet I miss it in the speech posted here. Is this said maybe in the after-math which has been left out by Stormcrown? Or was that other post wrong? Edited January 12, 2012 by faifh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justwannaddl Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 For a clandestine organization, especially one built on lies the way the Thalmor was, it is easy enough to place misinformation even in internal documents. The general rule of thumb in TES is that nothing written is 100% trustworthy except perhaps the elder scrolls when it talks of the past. Never supposed to see anything written as 100% trustworthy, but considering the way you obtained those documents, its very unplausible to been set up, so a guest that sneaks out of the party killing a dozend elfs finds this forged documents. Give me a break :) No, Ulfric is an asset to the Thalmor. The info found was vague and subject to interpretation. It is ugly but it does not necessarily damn him. Did he give info under torture or did he collude with the enemy? Did the Thalmor let him go with his knowing cooperation? Did it say that he was giving them info after he escaped their custody or did he simply allow Thalmor to have an audience with him before Markarth? All it really says is that the Civil War is good, they have used Ulfric and it is not possible to use him now but it may be possible to use him again. I don't believe I have ever heard Ulfric using the term lesser race. The closest I heard anyone use that is the Thalmor when they talk about man. @Chanchan05 The forsworn books you read don't match up well with the dialogue in Markarth. The ending in that series where the warchief swears bloody genocidal vengeance surrounded by gore doesn't help either. The dossier says he is an asset. That could mean he gave info, let them hang out in his castle the way you see them do in Markarth or it could simply mean they saw him as someone they can talk to and manipulate. As for the caravan situation, is that the policy of Ulfric or is that the actions of his men? If you haven't noticed, no city has a single Khajiit or argonian inside its walls. Racism is a problem everywhere in Skyrim and Windhelm is no exception. My position is simple. Both sides are messed up but at least Stormcloaks didn't try to kill me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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