Requesting feedback on fixing awful King's Reward in Orzammar

[Qwinn]

WOW. Just wow. This is (to me) a big enough deal that I'd like input from anyone following what I'm doing, so starting a separate thread.

 

For those who don't already know, be aware that depending on your choices, an internal counter is tracked for the two contenders for king, Bhelen and Harrowmont, indicating how much support you've raised for each one. You can still choose either one to be king regardless of how much support they have. The only effect these support counters have that I've found (or is mentioned in the wiki) so far is the reward the king gives you at the end, and the Steward's dialogue if you ask him how the election is looking prior to the crowning.

 

Now given that, check these out:

 

 

65. (v3.0) "A Lord's Trust: The Second Task": If you killed Jarvia for Harrowmont, *regardless* of whether you were working as a double agent, BHELEN got the high increase in support instead of Harrowmont. This actually made getting the supposedly best reward from Harrowmont for making him King with high support impossible. I say supposedly for good reason. It's actually hilariously bad. See below.

 

66. (v3.0) "A Paragon of Her Kind": The implementation of the rewards given by the Kings at the end of this plot is gobsmackingly bad. It is based on the amount of support you were able to get while working the quests. Harrowmont's scripted reward for high support, Endrin's Mace, is unobtainable in game due to Task 2 giving Bhelen a high support boost regardless of who you were working for - you simply couldn't get Harrowmont support high enough. But the stats on all of these rewards are incredibly low level quality, with Bhelen's low support reward being MUCH better than his high support reward. Here are the four possible rewards:

Harrowmont High Support: Endrin's Mace. Tier 6 Silverite. +10 cold resistance, +15 mental resistance. That's it. No +damage to darkspawn, despite dialogue scripting comments indicating it should have that property. Yet believe it or not, this is probably the most appropriate of the 4 rewards.
Harrowmont Low Support: Harrowmont's Staff: Tier 3 Steel (seriously - Tier 3 Steel. Dog can fetch a better staff than this! You can steal a better staff than this in the Mage Origin!) +1 Magic, + 2 Constitution. Possibly the worst staff obtainable after Lothering.
Bhelen High Support: Aeducan's Mace: Tier 2 GREY IRON!!!! Even worse than Harrowmont's Staff. (The description says it's "made finely"). +2 damage vs. darkspawn and Messy Kills. That's it.
Bhelen Low Support: Trian's Maul: Silverite. 4 tiers better than the high support reward, lol. +4 damage vs. darkspawn - double the bonus of the high support reward.

 

 

That is just such excrutiatingly bad implementation/design that I'm inclined to believe it rises to the level of bug. And to fix that, I'd have to put my designer's hat on, and try to pick new stats that aren't just disappointing to the player, they make both kings look ungrateful to the point of literal psychosis.

 

At least I have the scripting comments to go on, which state that the higher support rewards should have +damage to darkspawn, so that tells me one thing I can add to Endrin's mace.

 

At the very least, I will switch the stats on Trian's Maul and Aeducan's mace, cause the way they are CLEARLY falls into the category of bug. Actually, getting Bhelen's support up to 8 which gets you Aeducan's mace is actually one of the more difficult non-combat tasks in the game, as 8 is the actual maxium obtainable, meaning you have to do EVERYTHING perfectly, including pass a high persuade check with Lord Dace, declare the Proving for Bhelen, and have Orta support Bhelen. Double crossing Bhelen in the second task by giving evidence of murder to Harrowmont actually has no effect on Bhelen''s support (even after all bug fixes), which is just sad. And as I mentioned, you *can't* get Harrowmont's support high enough in the base game, but even post fix, it'd be equally as hard to get his "better" reward.

 

Honestly, if I had been the original designer of this, I would've handled the way support is done very differently. I would give the person you were working for as a double agent a high increase and the person you publicly did it for a low increase upon completion, instead of the reverse which is what actually happens. Why would either contender ask you to go ahead with the Kill Jarvia mission for the other side, if it still helps the other contender way more than it helps themselves? And seriously, finding clear evidence that Bhelen murdered his own brother only gets Harrowmont as much support as convincing Baizyl or Gwiddon to fight for him in the Proving does - even if they don't actually fight in it? That's bonkers.

 

Part of me sooooo wants to take a heavy hand to changing all this, I could design this whole aspect better in my sleep.

 

But it could be argued that doing so would constitute a tweak more than a bugfix.

 

So I will ask you all:

 

1) Are those rewards so bad that they rise to the level of bug requiring a complete overhaul? (Besides switching the stats on Bhelen's rewards - that much at least is definitely happening). Should I just dub all 4 rewards to be bugged and redesign them from scratch? (I mean seriously, a DWARVEN KING used a tier 2 grey iron mace?)

 

2) Is the support system as described above so fubared that I should adjust the amounts to make *any* consistent sense, like maybe giving Harrowmont more support for proving Bhelen is a murderer than passing an easy persuade check with Gwiddon does?

 

I would really appreciate feedback. While I wait for that, I'll try to come up with some proposed stats for the rewards, but I'd still prefer to know if folks agree that the above is bad enough to represent a bug that needs fixing, and wouldn't be considered a "tweak". Fixing only bugs, not "tweaking", is important to me.

Edited February 19, 2017 by Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Holy crap - I just discovered... That "better" mace Bhelen gives you? Duncan gives you the exac t same mace at the end of the dwarf commoner origin!!!

 

Okay, that tears it. It's all bugs all the way down. I'm going to town.

[Jannifer]

Ah! I get to discuss DAO once more. I've missed it a bit.

 

Orzammar is really tough enough that you ought to make it one of the later visits in your search to implement the Warden treaties. As such, it would make more sense for the items to be worth more.

 

Considering that kings are chosen by the deshyrs of the Assembly rather that ruling by right of blood, it wouldn't necessarily be odd that a king might have a lower tier weapon...perhaps an old family heirloom. However, as a reward at the end of a massive quest, I would certainly choose something different. I also think it's important to remember that Aeducan was a paragon, unlike Trian. Paragons don't always start as wealthy nobles, so Aeducan's Mace would fall neatly into that category of "an old family heirloom".

 

I wouldn't call these rewards bugs per se, except for the support going to Bhelen instead of Harrowmont after Entering Jarvia's Hideout. However, I might approach this by bumping up the stats on the steel staff from Harrowmont. I'd make Aeducan's Mace silverite rather than iron and bump the stats on that also. Then, Trian's Maul could be steel. I think these things might make the rewards more logical.

 

In any case, have fun modding. :thumbsup:

[Qwinn]

Thanks for the thoughts. I dunno. Trian was a Prince. I doubt he'd settle for tier 3 steel, I was getting better random drops than that in my first main plot area. Hell, I got a better drop than that off one of 6 Bhelen fanatics a few hours ago. As for Harrowmont's staff, as I said, even Dog can fetch a veridium staff. The oak branch you get in the Brecilian Forest from the Grand Oak is way better than Harrowmont's staff, never mind Zarathian's staff.

 

Let's take Ageless as a guide. You can get it within minutes of walking into Orzammar, and all it requires is stepping on a few plates and killing a relatively easy baby dragon. Here are the stats:

 

Silverite (Tier 6)

Weakens nearby darkspawn
Messy kills
Increases hostility and intimidation
+0.25 stamina regeneration in combat
+4 damage vs. darkspawn

 

That is AMAZING in comparison to any of the final rewards given. Like, qualitatively 5x-10x better.

 

I think bumping the final rewards up to around this level would be reasonable. I think the High Support mace rewards should be slightly better than this, and the low support ones slightly worse than this. Accordingly, the maces will be dragonbone with equivalent stats and Trian's Maul and Harrowmont's staff will be Silverite (but with lesser stats).

 

I'm going to have to make Bhelen's high support reward an entirely new item, since I can't change Aeducan Mace as it's still going to be the mace Duncan gives you in the Dwarf Commoner Origin. Yes, that's the absurd little factoid that finally made me give up even a shred of doubt that any of these rewards were "as intended", and I am therefore giving myself free rein to fix all of this as I see fit with what information I have.

 

So here's what I'm thinking:

 

Harrowmont High Support: Endrin's Mace. Tier 7 Dragonbone: +10 cold resistance, +15 mental resistance, weakens darkspawn, +4 darkspawn damage, +25 health, +0.5 health regen in combat.
Harrowmont Low Support: Harrowmont's Staff: Tier 6 (Silverite) +1 Magic, +2 Constitution, +2 Willpower, +0.5 mana regen in combat.
Bhelen High Support: Royal Aeducan Mace: Tier 7 (Dragonbone): Messy Kills, +4 attack, +6 darkspawn damage, +25 stamina, +1 stamina regen in combat.

Bhelen Low Support: Trian's Maul: Tier 6 (Silverite): +2 attack, +2 armor penetration, +4 darkspawn damage, +4% melee critical chance, +25 stamina

 

Thoughts?

Edited February 20, 2017 by Qwinn

[Thandal]

I agree that it's "bugs all the way down". So the question becomes, "How much to fix and still be a bugfix?"

 

The only quibble I'd have with your reasoning in Post #1 is about the "public" vs. "private" support. Seems to me that given the whole point of the Tasks is to generate support among the Deshyrs, then the candidate you helped publically would be the one who would appreciate it more. The one you're secretly also working for may continue to cut you some slack. (Persuade check, anyone?)

[Qwinn]

(First, up-front apologies for the wall of text below, this represents a LOT of analysis.)

 

Thandal: Fair enough, yes. It's plausible that's what they were figuring - although I see the Support variables not so much as "how much do the kings appreciate what I've done for them" - even though that is it's actual *effect*, as expressed in the quality of the rewards (or what you'd *expect* their quality to be, anyway) - but as "how much support from the deshyrs have your actions gained for this contender".

 

I was about to post, though, about how silly it is that convincing Gwiddon and Baizyl to fight gets Harrowmont twice as much support as giving him proof that Bhelen effectively commited regicide - but then I did some searching, and *headdesk*, no, their dialogue comments say they're supposed to give support when recruited, but they don't either! ARGH! I was wondering how anyone even managed to get Harrowmont's staff, since I saw scripting comments indicating that needed some level of support to get, but nope - you ALWAYS get at least Harrowmont's Staff or Trian's Maul regardless of support. This can't really be fixed, as there is no "no reward" dialogue option. So the only effect of the support in the unmodded game is the *slim* chance of being able to get the grey iron tier 2 dwarf commoner newbie weapon from Bhelen, instead of the less crappy Trian's Maul (at least it's Silverite, might get a couple gold for it instead of copper!).

 

Summary: Gaining support for your chosen king can only HURT you in the unmodded game. Wow.

 

I was initially looking at this wiki page for how to get support, but it's riddled with errors:

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Bandelor#A_Paragon_of_Her_Kind_point_system:_Explained

 

The only ways to improve Harrowmont support that actually work are:

 

+1: Defeating Hanashan in round 3 of the Proving

+1: Actually dedicate your victory in the Proving to Harrowmont in dialogue at the end

+1: If you *lost* the proving for Harrowmont, mutually exclusive with the previous point

+1: Get Orta to lend her support for Harrowmont

+1: Getting evidence that Bhelen killed his brother when doing Shifting Allegiances - which means you couldn't have gotten the points from the Proving.

 

So the maximum there is 3 points! And getting the high support reward requires 8! So even if I fix the 3 points going to Bhelen instead of Harrowmont for Task 2, that's STILL only 6, not enough to restore Endrin's Mace!

 

Now, if I decide to *just* add support indicated by scripting comments that weren't implemented, then I can get him over the top. Comments in the dialogue scripting indicate the following events SHOULD increase Harrowmont's support, but they don't:

 

+1: Recruiting Baizyl (doesn't need to actually fight)

+1: Recruiting Gwiddon (doesn't need to actually fight)

+1: Defeating Senewyn in Round 1 of the Proving

 

The first two of those points you can get even if you ultimately work publicly for Bhelen, just do them before you finish Bhelen's task. So if you do Shifting Allegiances, the maximum you can get is 4 (2 for recruiting, one for getting the evidence, and one from Orta).

 

For Bhelen, that page is more accurate:

 

+1 for Helmi - can't be confirmed. For some odd reason, Helmi's dialogue pulls up as empty.

+1 to +3 depending on your dialogue choices with Lord Dace

+1 for declaring for Bhelen in the Proving

+3 for killing Jarvia (regardless of who you do it for, sigh)

+1 for Orta

+1 for planting the papers for Bhelen in "Betrayed from Within" while working for Harrowmont.

 

With these numbers, in the unmodded game you can actually get the required 8 support for the noob dwarf commoner mace by working for Harrowmont and doing Betrayed from Within, lol. You can get Dace's 3 points without talking to Helmi, then declare for Harrowmont, kill Jarvia for Harrowmont which gets you 3 points for Bhelen, another +1 for planting the papers, +1 from Orta, that's 8!

 

Again, this is so badly implemented - as in, basically unfinished - that I'm again tempted to just go nuts and redesign from scratch. But I'm not as intent on that as I am on fixing the rewards as described above.

 

If I fix the obvious bugs and *just* add Harrowmont approval where the dialogue comments say it should happen but actually doesn't, this will be the final possible support for Harrowmont:

 

+1: Recruiting Baizyl (doesn't need to actually fight, can be done without declaring for Harrowmont)

+1: Recruiting Gwiddon (doesn't need to actually fight, can be done without declaring for Harrowmont))

+1: Defeating Senewyn in Round 1 of the Proving

+1: Defeating Hanashan in round 3 of the Proving

+1: Actually dedicate your victory in the Proving to Harrowmont in dialogue at the end

+1: If you *lost* the proving for Harrowmont, mutually exclusive with the previous point (not sure how you can do this actually, when I died in the proving during my tests, I got Game Over)

+3: For killing Jarvia for Harrowmont

+1: Get Orta to lend her support for Harrowmont

+1: Getting evidence that Bhelen killed his brother when doing Shifting Allegiances - which means you could only get 2 points from the Proving quests (Gwiddon and Baizyl).

 

So if you worked for Harrowmont publicly, you could get 9 points, and Endrin's Mace is restored. If you worked for Bhelen and did Shifting Allegiances, you can get maximum 4 points and can at most get Harrowmont's Staff.

 

As for Bhelen:

 

+1 for Helmi - can't be confirmed directly. For some odd reason, Helmi's dialogue pulls up as empty.

+1 to +3 depending on your dialogue choices with Lord Dace

+1 for declaring for Bhelen in the Proving

+3 for killing Jarvia for Bhelen

+1 for Orta

+1 for planting the papers for Bhelen in "Betrayed from Within" while working for Harrowmont.

 

Maximum 8 points for working for Bhelen, 9 if Helmi's point works (I'll confirm that shortly using Steward Bandelor's dialogue). Maximum 5 points doing Betrayed from Within (3 points from Dace before declaring for Harrowmont, +1 from Orta and +1 for planting papers.

 

So even if I did what I was considering for the double-agent quests - reversing the effects such that you get +3 for the one you're covertly working for and +1 to the one you're publicly working for - that still wouldn't be enough to get the High Support reward for either of them.

 

I'll update this post if I find any more points that get awarded, or unimplemented scripting comments indicating it should happen. Assuming I found them all, though... that actually comes up fairly even, especially if Helmi's point does work. Maximum 9 each, 8 needed for the greater reward, and can only get that reward for the guy you're working for publicly. That's not unreasonable and could have been the ultimate intent of the support system.

 

So I'll go ahead and do that - fix the 3 points for task 2 for Harrow, and implement the 3 unimplemented points that the dialogue comments for the Proving indicate Harrowmont should have gotten but didn't. Good enough, and doesn't violate my fixes-only ethic at all.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Just managed to confirm - Helmi's point does work. So as far as how support is calculated, with 8 points required to get the supposedly superior reward, if I restore Harrowmont support based solely on the obvious task 2 bug and in the places where the unimplemented dialogue comments say it should have happened, it comes to maximum 9 each for the contender you're working for publicly, and for the one you're working for covertly it doesn't really matter, you can't even get close to 8. I suppose I can live with that. I'll update the main bugfix thread with that much. I'll wait for some more feedback before I add the new rewards I proposed above to the list.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Qwinn

[Qwinn]

Holy crap. Just made a MAJOR find.

 

If you crown Harrowmont, as we all know, Bhelen doesn't take it well and attacks. It is at THAT point that the papers obtained during Shifting Alliances were supposed to come into play! Per the scripting comments, any player at that point was supposed to be able to present the papers, to roaring reaction from the crowd. This was supposed to result in a whopping +5 increase to Harrowmont's support (which seems entirely appropriate to me)! And if that worked, Endrin's Mace would've been available all along!

 

The problems:

 

1) A scripting error (the defined flag checking if you could bring up the papers at the crowning was incorrectly set up as a main flag in the plot file) made this option never appear for anyone!

 

2) Although the flag "ACTION_SUPPORT_INCREASE_VERY_HIGH" is set at this point (this is in the Steward's dialogue), there was no scripting at all backing up that flag, so even if it worked, there'd be no actual support increase.

 

Fixing THOSE bugs changes everything. Part of my angst in this thread about all this is that I was so massively disappointed that there was no *point* in doing all the double agent stuff, which to me seemed insane given how incredibly complicated (and elegant, despite all the bugs) the code making all that possible is. And it offended me that having proof that Bhelen killed Trian had no effect. With *this*, it is no longer pointless to get that evidence, at least for Shifting Allegiances. You can actually end with high support for Harrowmont via Shfiting Allegiances with this fix. There's nothing similar I've found yet at this point with the planted papers if doing Betrayed from Within, but that's mainly because Harrowmont meekly accepts your crowning Bhelen, doesn't protest, and immediately gets executed by Bhelen.

 

You know... this is starting to make sense to me now. One bug that I fixed in v1.0 is that, if you planted the papers for Bhelen, when you talked to Harrowmont you got no reward at all - no flag was set. I think it's because they hadn't decided how to implement their intent, and never got around to finishing it. I think THIS is why the code was scripted to give Bhelen +3 support regardless of who you were working for, another partial implementation of their intent. I really think now that the intent was that if you planted the papers, Bhelen was supposed to get the +3 support at that point, and if you didn't, Harrowmont should have gotten the +3 support, but it only got half implemented. That would make sense and would be a fairly proper matching corresponding boost to Bhelen's support for Betrayed from Within that you get later on for Shifting Allegiances.

 

If I apply fixes with that perceived intent as my guide, it becomes possible to get high support from BOTH double agent quests. Which makes both of them not pointless to pursue. Which makes me very very very happy.

 

Yes, I think that's the way I'm going to fix all this. I think it's a very elegant solution, I'm comfortable with it corresponding to the intent I can now see written across the code, and it goes a long way toward explaining how a bunch of these otherwise mostly inexplicable bugs came to be.

 

Never mind that this fix is also a very cool restoration of a different way that Harrowmont's crowning and Bhelen's downfall can play out.

 

I happy. Very very happy. Can't wait to get to the Crowning and see it for myself.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Qwinn

[Thandal]

@Qwinn; Huge props to you for sticking with this so carefully! As someone who (occasionally) has the ear of a senior BioWare producer, I'm going to wait until you release your FixPack v3.0, then link him to the entire discussion you've provided and show him that we, the players/fans, *do* care. Deeply. Even after all this time. And at least one of us is willing to take the time to "get it right!"

(Are you looking for a job? I'll write an endorsement. :laugh: )

[Qwinn]

Thandal:

 

Getting a job doing this is about 75% of the reason I'm doing this :smile: Well, ok, 50%. Any help you can give in that regard would be HUGELY appreciated.

 

My only restriction would be that i'm not willing to relocate, but I'm hoping by doing this I'm demonstrating I don't *need* to be on location to be hugely productive.

 

Seriously, doing this for enough pay that I wouldn't have to work a second job would be my dream job. I have at *least* as much fun making the game as close as I can to flawless as I do playing the game itself, so I'd actually look forward to getting up every morning to do this for 12 hours.. Twas the same when I did my Planescape: Torment fixpack (believe it or not, I'm still nowhere even *close* to fixing as many bugs in this as I did in that game, but then I was unemployed when I did that and was doing it for 16 hours a day, lol), and I lubbed playing that game.

 

BTW, what'd you think of my proposed rewards?

 

Oh, also, if you have his ear, tell him I'd love to take a crack at all of this game's sequels before they put out an "Ultimate Edition" ;) Unfortunately can't do that without being able to open the files up in the toolset. But that's when we talk non compete and non disclosure agreements on the way to that job :)

Edited February 20, 2017 by Qwinn