Scrap Issue

[l0new0lf331]

After some quick research for making items scrappable, for some reason even following the instructions here, I cannot get the all the wall lights in the main cavern to scrap. Some of them will but not others see here (yes I realize in the pic of the ones not selectable, my cursor isn't on it. Trust me it won't light up for scrap). They are named the same. Any ideas?

 

The ones attached to the wall CANNOT be selected for scrap.

The ones attached to the columns CAN be selected for scrap.

 

For reference --VltLight05UtilCage01MountedWhiteLit-- Used 98 times in Vault 88

 

It isn't a part of the wall mesh that it's attached to. It's a separate selectable piece in the CK.

[VIitS]

That might be due to how the new previs/precombineds were made for the Cell (so that it would work without bugs). Assuming it actually worked for you (which is iffy, not sure why, the fact that it works for some people indicates it was made properly), that might explain it. The precombineds that are unscrappable are around the edges of the visible cell, if you scrapped them you'd see into the void.

 

I can't be certain that is the reason, but it seems likely.

[damanding]

There are so many major problems with trying to scrap items not originally meant to be scrappable in Vault 88 and the Mechanists Lair that even the Scrap Everything mod concluded it was safest to just not try. Scrapping items in those locations breaks the pre-combines so much harder than exterior locations. You'd be better off using the CK to directly disable the items you don't want and just use the esp.

 

Edited to add the above post explains even better than I did. :D

Edited February 24, 2017 by damanding

[l0new0lf331]

Ahh ok I figured it was something like that. Just not with the technical words. I remember on the Scrap Everything page they did mention issues with scrapping items in those 2 places. I wanted to be able to scrap those particular lights as they tend to bleed through the walls of vault pieces I put in. Would a light box accomplish that?

[BlahBlahDEEBlahBlah]

  On 2/24/2017 at 2:57 AM, l0new0lf331 said:

Would a light box accomplish that?

It should if it's linked correctly.

I don't remember if there was a keyword needed, or just action of linking it.

[l0new0lf331]

What I saw of light boxes is that the light sources themselves are linked to it with a keyword I don't remember atm (I think it was literally "Light Box"). I'm packing it up for the night. One of the lights I linked to objects ended up deleting lights I didn't even touch yet so tomorrow I've got to figure out which one (or 2). Though I have a good idea which.

[VIitS]

If anyone is interested in the specifics of why it is such a problem:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Interior cells have two performance-saving systems, one of which is usually disabled. The one it uses by default is the previs system, the same one all exterior cells use. This works by having certain objects set to block anything calculated as being blocked from sight when you are standing at a certain position relative to the blocking object. Unfortunately, while this is generated based on certain objects (which, from what I can tell, only includes objects that are part of a precombined mesh), if the object is then removed (by scrapping, for instance), the "occlusion mesh" (for lack of a better term) stays there. This is what would cause the "LOD bugs" or "occlusion bugs" people would often complain about with initial versions of scrap mods. That is why it needs to be disabled as well (and not just precombined meshes) for the cells you want to make everything scrappable in.

 

The second system interior cells use is the one of the main reasons why you can't just disable them*. This is the room bounds and portals method of occlusion (which is what was used in FO3, FNV, and Skyrim). Using this system, you define a room (roombounds), and nothing outside that room will be rendered. To deal with visibility through a door or window, you can define a "portal" that tells the game to render anything that would be visible through that area. To be clear, the system itself is not bad, and I personally would recommend it for anyone making a new interior cell if the are willing to put in the time (since you can control it much more precisely than previs, which is auto-generated). The problem comes from no one at Bethesda being very good with it. They put them in, but they didn't actually put in the work to make the roombounds match the actual dimensions (mainly for oddly-shaped rooms, rectangular rooms are simple enough they usually get them right).

 

This leads to issues like the ones seen when Elianora first released her Vault 81 mod. There was an alcove in a hallway that didn't render, instead showing a glimpse of the void. There were also some things that vanished from view depending on where you were standing in the room they were in. This was not something caused by Elianora, as they would happen if you just disabled previs, though she did figure out how to fix it. It's really bad if you turn off previs in Vault 95.

 

Because of Bethesda's laziness***, you have to either fix all the bad room bounds/missing portals or generate new previs. Since previs is generated based off of precombined objects, you also have to generate new precombineds (which bloats the download size, as seen with the version of Scrap Everything that tried to fix the problem for the DLC settlements) before you can make new previs.

 

It certainly doesn't help that Bethesda doesn't release any sort of guides on modding. Everything we have is things learned by trial and error, and occasionally a response form the Bethesda forums by a Bethesda Dev on why something is working a certain way. We still don't know very much about how the CK generates precombineds/previs, and how to exclude certain things from being added to them.

 

*the second big reason is due to the way they have the background/sky of interior cells work. In most interior cells**, there is just a white void surrounding the playable area. If you make a gap (by scrapping an outer wall, for instance), it exposes this void. This leads to the screen-tearing, "hall of mirrors" effect you sometimes see in interior cells with precombineds or previs disabled. For this reason, you have to have some things in precombineds to prevent people from scrapping the wrong thing. And sometimes, if you aren't extremely thorough, you include things (like that light source) in the precombined mesh that aren't strictly needed to block the void. There is no way of being able to tell for sure without loading the cell in-game.

 

**this can be changed, as seen in (as an example) the Old State House in Goodneighbor. If you scrap the windows/walls, there is a very low quality ground/city outside, and a sky

 

***seriously, why did they bother including the system if they weren't going to do it properly? It can't be that they had already done it before they created the previs system, as the most common locations people have seen these problems are the two DLC settlements.

 

[Trosski]

What I have started doing to scrap objects not meant to be scrapped is to link them to another object that is meant to be scrapped using the WorkshopStackedItemPARENTKeyword, then I Precombin Geometries for the cell it's in, and the generate precombined visibility for the loaded area. I posted a YouTube tutorial video on the subject. It's 40 minutes long, but it's a complex subject to discuss. It covers precombining, and generating visibility, and making compatibility patches.

[l0new0lf331]

@Vlits thank you for that explanation. That actually made sense to me. And it explains the issues present in Vault 88. I'm not sure I could handle trying to fix that.

@Trosski I'll have a look at that video and see what I can learn from it.

 

Thank You all for your help and guidance

VIitS