How lighting interacts with this armour... ! Arggh! Help.

[ghosu]

So here we go:

 

Had the same display error so i flipped the faces once more in Nifskope:

 

http://666kb.com/i/c0shwg59483dpiqsz.jpg

 

Exactly the opposite...but as you see, one part of the armor is bright, the other dark. Though they are exposed to the same light source.

So i thought that there might be some trouble with the model and loaded it into my 3D Editor and...

 

http://666kb.com/i/c0si6h1req83bninn.jpg

 

As you see...the feathers and the armor are facing into DIFFERENT directions, so the texture displays correct on the yellow areas but wrong on the blue fields. You can flip the faces as often as you want in Nifskope, they would always point into opposite directions, so opposite reaction of the texture.

 

Dunno if Beth messed it up or they did it on purpose and adjusted that somehow in the nif...or it was not so important since the original color was so dark.

 

I don't think you can select those faces in Nifskope and flip only those...will check it out.

 

If not you have to extract the mesh, pick out the "wrong" faces and flip them, then import the mesh back into the nif and fix all that stuff that will be changed by the import process :D

 

Or adjust the map so in this area it has exactly the opposite effect...so in the specular map white => black.

Edited January 29, 2012 by ghosu

[SkjoldBjorn]

oh lol i thought about that, but since he said he did nothing to the mesh itself i did'nt think that would be the issue. :O I did not know i could flip faces in nifskope, i only knew you could in modeling programs, now i learned another thing today.

[ghosu]

Afaik you can't flip single faces in Nifskope so this was there from the beginning, dunno how Beth handles that i only have limited knowledge 'bout that, i guess they did it on purpose since the texture displays differently then. Edited January 29, 2012 by ghosu

[ooofbaer]

Ghosu, you're awesome!

 

As you see...the feathers and the armor are facing into DIFFERENT directions, so the texture displays correct on the yellow areas but wrong on the blue fields. You can flip the faces as often as you want in Nifskope, they would always point into opposite directions, so opposite reaction of the texture.

 

I knew it wasn't my fault! :P

 

Dunno if Beth messed it up or they did it on purpose and adjusted that somehow in the nif...or it was not so important since the original color was so dark.

 

So in fact you have to extract the mesh, pick out the "wrong" faces and flip then, then import the mesh back into the nif and fix all that stuff that will be changed by the import process :D

 

Or adjust the map so in this area it has exactly the opposite effect...so in the specular map white => black.

 

Okay, this makes sense. So all I have to do is make the feathers really, really bright on the specular map. Understood. Are there any problems I might run into if I do that, instead of fixing the mesh?

I mean, could this lead to rendering problems in the game, somehow? I can't think of anything, but I want to make sure so I don't put out shoddy work.

 

(And what program did you use, by the way? It's a lot easier to fix things when you can actually see the problem. Nifskope doesn't colour things like that; all you see is gray, and shadows.)

Edited January 29, 2012 by ooofbaer

[ghosu]

Cinema 4D if you want to spare "a few dollars" :D

Blender is for free, should be able to do the same since it is an essential function.

 

Can't say 'bout rendering problems since i'm not that much into it...just replacing weapons atm, armor works a bit different. I guess it would work but the question is why they handle it this way - so make a new thread 'bout this topic (i guess experienced Oblivion modders have seen something like that before) or just try it out on the backside...that's not so much work...and then try different light sources.

 

Those opposite headed faces just explain why the armor reacts different when u apply a standard specular to it - why they coded it this way is another question.

Edited January 29, 2012 by ghosu

[ooofbaer]

I can get Maya for free -- I'm a student -- so I think I'll use that instead. :)

 

Very much interested to find out what the reason for this practice, if that's what it is, is. I'll pose the question later. Right now, I'm going to bed. I stayed up all night just so I could get an answer to this.

 

Thanks again, ghosu. If I didn't give you kudos for this, I'd be remiss!

 

:sleep:

[ghosu]

EDIT:

 

I did some more research and i guess the problem could be larger...

 

http://666kb.com/i/c0sjqq5c81hrruw4z.jpg

 

I seperated the faces, the 2 selected were nearly on the same spot, i moved them a bit. There is one with the face up and one down. A polygon can only have one face, when you look at the face you see the texture, when you look at it from the other side you can look through it...so they had to put 2 close together, one for the upper side and one for the downside so it looks like a flat object. As you see on the right sight both faces share the same UV area with the texture, of course so both sides look the same.

 

As you see on my first screenshot from the 3D Editor the wrong faces are displayed when i select all faces, but there are 2 faces on nearly the same spot (up/down) so normally it SHOULD work correct BUT the game engine seems to display it like my 3D programm when it shows the whole thing.

 

So i don't think changing the faces or the alpha would fix that...normally it should be displayed correctly since there is an upper and a downside but ingame exactly this area gets f*cked up or melts together or whatever...this looks like a pretty tricky thing so wait for more input - i guess i think to complicated...or as mentioned before, new topic.

 

EDIT II:

 

Well and of course the original texture/mesh doesn't work as well, changing the specular map won't fix it then.

 

http://666kb.com/i/c0spw1m4x4gzulhdf.jpg

 

So it's just a basic bug / artistic freedom...that is caused by the mentioned circumstances, 2 close faces melt together - so i guess this can only be fixed by raising the distance between those polygons - not worth the effort if you ask me :D

Edited January 29, 2012 by ghosu

[ooofbaer]

Hahah, it gets worse... :D

 

You're saying that all I have to do is make the under-layer smaller by one or two pixels, or the top-layer bigger by one or two pixels, and then the mesh should work like it's supposed to? Great. From my understanding of modelling, I won't need to move anything, because I'm not changing the dimensions; I'm just resizing the section, and not much, at that. Doesn't sound like too much work. I'm sure I saw a thread somewhere here about resizing sections of an armour, which should help.

 

(On second thought, this might be quite a task... But I've already put 150 hours into this mod. I don't want all the time and energy to have been wasted. Hopefully the two armours are the only faulty Forsworn items...)

 

I just need some clarification: so the problem is not with the armour facing in two different directions, but with the mixing of the two feather layers?

Edited January 29, 2012 by ooofbaer

[ghosu]

Well i can't guarantee it of course but i'm pretty sure it would work if you just move the outside polyongs a bit more outside, would'nt change the UV map so it should not destroy the texture.

 

Afaik replacing armor is a bit more fuzzy than weapons but until you start with Maya the CK should be available and maybe includes an easy way to import armor as well...in worst case NifSkope.

[ooofbaer]

Okay, great. Turns out a friend has a copy installed on his laptop from last year when he was still studying. He's bringing it over tonight. All that remains is for me to learn how to use Maya. :teehee: