a fistful of ideas, yojimbo, and throwing weapons that are *not* grenade slot things

[tartarsauce2]

I'm a fan of darkest dungeon's team management system, and the "lightly linear, mostly flat" style of progression, where while levels are important and matter, the types of characters you choose are actually really important as well, and what of their pool of abilities you pick for them to use in the particular dungeon, alongside the particular team mates, and the insanity meter, sickness/mental disorder system....
it has no roleplay elements in it to speak of, and yet I find myself fulfilled by the choices I have to make in it, when looking into why I feel like fallout 3 is better in some ways than fallout 4, I ran across someone saying something that FO3 is better about making "how you go about things and the choices you make" matter, while FO4 is better gameplay wise

the solution occurred to me today. darkest dungeon doesn't have RP elements, and yet it ALSO has meaningful choices like FO3, but fallout 4 while it doesn't, COULD have them through its gameplay being modded, while in terms of baseline engine, the gameplay is already superior to FO3 by miles, in other words, I think fallout 4 if it took to heart darkest dungeon's design philosophy (or a mod helped it in that way) it could make fallout 4 a mindblowingly great experience for replays too even in "vanilla" playthroughs


the most obvious inspirations for these things, the idea that any weapon is dangerous in the right situation if you know how to use it, and that no, just because you're the big enemy of the movie you don't take 50 billion bullets to kill, that the savage throwing spears at you is a potential threat, but the projectiles are slow enough that you can kinda dodge them at further ranges.... and yes you want to dodge them.

but most important is this scene from yojimbo's end

inspired this

and this scene, IT'S HIIIIIIIGH NOON

the reason for the throwing weapons that aren't grenade slot but actually weapon slot weapons is because it'd be nice to have them in VATS, and I'd like to at some point try making a world where melee and primitive weaponry is much more common so that even when you're later ingame the primitive style enemies while being easier also don't just drop your favourite ammo all day everyday meaning taking them on can sometimes be a DRAIN on your resources... I want to make a setup/system/mod where you're actually really grateful for money and goods, and you're struggling to make it through the area while preserving some of the RPG elements and not having everything a one shot kill kind of game either - and I think a repair/degradation system's out of the picture so the best I can think of next is ammo spent without a proper return necessarily, while fighting enemies that can hurt you if you're not careful but aren't guaranteed to drop what you'd prefer, but in a pinch you can take their throwing weapons (which weigh a bit thus making them also an inconvenience elsewise, I want to force meaningful decision making as you go along)
because I believe that fallout 4 has the potential to be a properly balanced game, as an RPG, maybe the writing isn't the greatest or the memorable quests aren't so much there, but the gameplay has a LOT of potential, and I don't feel it's been quite tapped yet

the idea is that guns are special no matter what kind of gun it is so that pipeguns are never actually totally redundant - but there can be specific differences between guns, I'd probably want to limit what receivers can be on what guns a little bit too at some point, but this would be later stuff, because I feel like there's gonna have to be a LOT of tinkering with simple stuff, but volumes of it

also, if lighter smaller throwing weapons were faster to toss, but maybe did less damage straight up while having more subtle effects (getting hit by a javelin is gonna hurt obviously and a lot... getting hit by a knife not so much but maybe they get more than a few knives into ya)


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darkest dungeon's narrator explains well...Killing an enemy with blight or bleed:

“ A death by inches... „

“ Great is the weapon that cuts on its own! „

“ Slowly, gently, this is how a life is taken... „

“ The slow death - unforeseen, unforgiving

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one of the things I really liked about fallout 3 is that the world is kind of... the same at all levels to a degree, the sponge scaling isn't there from what I've seen, the main changes in gameplay are how you relate to the world - fallout 4's more gameplay oriented and less roleplay oriented but I feel that a similar theme of "how you relate to the world" can be applied to weapons and combat balance

one of the key things aside from better representation of "primitive" weapons through a throwing weapons that are actually weapons so are VATS'able system, is that firearms are a little more stable in terms of how useful they are, to that extent I feel like all the vanilla weapons should be looked over to see what sorts of unique qualities can be given, so that they're useful, but different from each other, all throughout the game... the settlements system could probably also use some sort of overhaul in line with all this, but it's something for a later date I think

as one example let's take the double barrel shotgun, which AFAIK is the most useless of them currently

fallout 4 double barrel shotgun modification idea... 50 caliber conversion, slug shots... chance to stun on hit (keeps the double barrel shotgun in the game as a useful weapon which is a kind of doctrine I have for all the stuff), give all certain weapons a tendency to add bleeds, add shotgun pellets to the shotguns projectile count, add a bit of bleed damage to them, making weapon effects way more common, flattening the scaling of the stuff throughout the game so bullet sponging doesn't occur

furthermore, the double barrel shotgun could perhaps have a lategame receiver that poisons the enemy on pellet impact too, while still using shotgun shells - maybe also these pellets could be back to a smaller number, but use the rail spike projectiles... maybe actually instead of pellets but while still using shotgun shells as ammo, they're considered as flechettes, and keep the bleed damage too... (similar to pipeguns but bigger for burst less for continuous fire making them a big game hunter type weapon)

another example, and one I've done for myself before through FO4edit, is to give pipeguns poison damage, use rail spikes as ammo (they're heavy and they just require steel to make in most ammo mods so it just fits with the concept of cheap ghetto heavy ammo), use the rail spike projectile (including its slower speed of travel) and give it bleed damage too a bit, making them a VERY ghetto weapon, but still QUITE deadly when you get hit multiple times, because I used it in tandem with damage thresh-hold and I found the game horribly balanced when flat values were introduced, but I found the potential for interesting things to be too good to give up on DT

what I found was that if I made pipeguns just 1 above most DT, because of the poison value (non-stacking, 25 I think) and bleed values (5 or something) and the rates of fire, bandits were harming me even while I was in good armour, it fits the lore fluff of pipeguns too, rusty makeshift firearms, maybe they're actually springloaded steel sharpened rod launchers (like flechettes!)
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2 parter:

change guns to be a bit more... emphasized in the negative and positive ways that the type of gun is thought of (shotguns low range, high kickback, slower rate of fire often - automatics having increased spray cone)

then, in tandem with this...

editing perks to change how guns operate more, flat damage increases being much smaller (shotgun ranges go up a bit, fire rates go up slightly - automatics' recoil related issues get reduced)
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sniper rifles specifically can get increased armour pierce and damage, standard semi automatics can have a bit of armouer pierce as well in smaller degrees and pistols could be better in VATS and get increased crit generation but have lower ranges except for the revolvers because their firing speed is terrible (IT'S HIIIIIIGH NOON)

melee weapons kinda are good as is - could probably add crippling from unarmed to it (you can use them while in power armour which is an intrinsic bonus over unarmed combat weapons and makes it "unique" relatively in this way)

unarmed combat weapons can add a bit of damage/energy resist and run speed while making the damage increases a little less, but adding a light bleed while reducing the VATS cripple chance by about half and increasing attack speed (they're less prone to stun but do a bit better damage and also get you into range faster to offset the lack of power armour usage capability and the range of guns - making gun usage what it is, melee as a knight kind of weapon and unarmed as a ninja kinda weapon)

Edited March 18, 2017 by tartarsauce2

[montky]

@tartarsauce2

what an interesting thread, and thank you for sharing it!

 

this has to be one of the most detailed fallout-related exegesis I've ever yet read or heard.

 

 

 

Having learned by trial and error; a number of Nex-ites are reading-averse,

and they're not afraid to publicly let you know it hehe.

hence, to take a precaution against derailment,

a "spoiler" "/spoiler" pair in front of blocks you'd want them to 'opt-in' to read, is advised.

 

technicalities of netiquette aside,

let's discuss your exegesis and fallout vision.

that is a very ambitious mod, and I am hoping that a confluence of events

will see a number of modders etc to team up to realize that.

 

your approach would make Survival Mode play a lot more differently;

I'd handle this as a holistic overhaul, as there's a lot of things such a project would want to alter.

tactically, with a lot more planning and meaning to choices.

you hit the nail on the head with "emotional investment"

 

turning to melee/throwable weapons...

it is already possible to apply VATS to thrown weapons from the grenade slot hehe.

I do get what you mean though... melee weapons and short-range tactics should be a norm,

with ranged engagements being a random seed event.

AGI for the enemy should be a little more dynamic. maybe they have 'honor'- they'll circle or send forth a champion,

maybe they'll deploy a smoke grenade and hit-and-fade for recurrent 'little bads'

and have random-seed "big bads" form as part of the ambient quests.

 

Bounty Boards and several nodal overhauls were looking into those kinds of things

which when combined with 'dont call me settler' and "Wasteland Public Radio/Books School of the Air"

and other live-enabled audio streams, can make for some real immersive opportunities.

 

I digress, turning to weapons... Any Mod Any Weapon,

Pipe Weapons overhaul,

Joerg Sprave

Forgotten Weapons parts packs,

MiB and steampunk raygun parts...

There's nothing more awesome than Shem Drowne/Krevnhm's Tooth/Pickman's blade electrified stunning ripper-shiv.

I wish there were more awesome random weapon configurations out there in the wasteland.

then, we've got the weapon maintenance and Any Mod Any Fail mods,

which make 'reliability' a factor...

 

don't even start me on the energy shield - that mod will be AWESOME when it's finished.

it's like the Tesla power armor piece, but for regular clothing.

it's a clothing item, and you add it to your favorite garment as a legendary slot.

alt fire when unarmed turns the shield on and off.

when you add it, you get a shield that takes 1 energy cell per second, and generates 1 rad per second...

to protect against ~490rad impacts, or 112 energy damage etc...

all of a sudden, it's an extra option for micromanagement -

will you use an energy shield? what if you're using Rad or Energy weapons...? you're making the energy cells

a triple use resource, so it's that tradeoff.

making the energy shield also weigh ~30-40lbs, and harm you,

will make it very hard to use in Survival Mode hehe.

 

Say a baddie goes to swing at you with their metal baseball bat or pipe...

zap. the energy shield electrocutes them passively for 112 and you take ~40dmg instead.

melee fights in the lower levels now get a lot more technical.

Say they're a synth... that energy weapon, energy shield or rads is just about the only thing which will harm them.

maybe, a glass-gallium bullet... but you'd need science 4 to craft that, plus the resources.