Ad Victoriam, But Why?

[Deleted4363562User]

Nice discussion. Many of these points, I would've included in the video, but I didn't want to make an hour long documentary. :laugh:

 

Not sure why we're talking about 19th century slaves though. Seems like a bad analogy to draw.

 

The speech Maxxon gives when you are trying to save Danse is one of the best scenes in the game, but he definitely could've made a better case by pointing out the risks that Danse posed as a synth. Maxxon is actually pretty emotional for a military leader. Kells is much more pragmatic, albeit just as authoritarian. I honestly think Maxxon is terrified deep down. I mean, the guy was ripped away from his family as a child and grew up watching the Brotherhood fall into civil war. Of course, it's not like everyone else in DC had some stellar childhood.

 

What's odd is that Maxxon and Desdemona seem to have a natural alliance underneath his bravado and her misguided liberalism. Both actually say that the Institute is toying with things they don't understand. From a tactical military standpoint, destroying the Institute without studying the technology is shortsighted. They need to gain a better understanding of the tech so that they can better combat it. The Railroad has been working with that tech much longer than the BOS, and would prove invaluable once inside the Institute. The BOS also needs the help of the Railroad in order to track down all the synths they rescued. The Railroad might also be turned into natural allies, if Maxxon and Kells would actually make a case to them. Being inside the Institute and having direct access to the information would certainly allow the two factions to have a proper meeting of the minds.

 

At some point, the BOS needs to start engaging in more diplomacy. It always bothered me that they didn't send an emissary of scribes out to settlements and arrange an exchange program. Food for Protection. Instead, they send a new recruit to either pay them off or strong arm them. :laugh:

[Moraelin]

I'm mentioning 19'th century slaves because that's where the Railroad name comes from, and that's the analogy that the game nudges you to make.

[Deleted4363562User]

I'm mentioning 19'th century slaves because that's where the Railroad name comes from, and that's the analogy that the game nudges you to make.

 

Wow, I feel dense. :facepalm: Totally forgot about the name's origin.

[Moksha8088]

The BOS also needs the help of the Railroad in order to track down all the synths they rescued. The Railroad might also be turned into natural allies, if Maxxon and Kells would actually make a case to them.

As in help us track down and destroy the synths you rescued? Would the Brotherhood be allowed to use waterboard persuasion in making this case?

[Deleted4363562User]

 

The BOS also needs the help of the Railroad in order to track down all the synths they rescued. The Railroad might also be turned into natural allies, if Maxxon and Kells would actually make a case to them.

As in help us track down and destroy the synths you rescued? Would the Brotherhood be allowed to use waterboard persuasion in making this case?

 

 

Considering there is currently no international law in Fallout, or a way to enforce it, the BOS can certainly water board if they deem it necessary. Can't say I'd be excited about it, if they did.

 

Personally, I don't think the Rail Road is so innocent and noble though. If given the chance they happily kill women and children to protect synths. They value synths over humans when push comes to shove. That's a bit disturbing.

[Moraelin]

Oh, the Railroad aren't noble at all. Even for the synths. They're about as much about saving synths, as the Spanish inquisition was about saving Jews and Muslims. They can kid themselves that what they do is saving, and after all the Inquisition too pretended they're saving those apostates' souls, but that doesn't make it the kind of "saving" you'd want.

 

Think I'm kidding? Riddle me this: after you transfer Curie into G5-19's body, who do you have as a companion? G5-19 or Curie? It's Curie, isn't it? G5-19 just ceased to exist, and her body is just hardware for a completely different person.

 

Your memories and personality aren't just some extra attributes. It's who you ARE. Everything you do, every decision you make, is based on those previous experiences. If someone took your brain and put it into Preston's skull, then it's you in Preston's body, and Preston just ceased to exist. The same body can be a scared slave, or a badass raider boss, depending on what those previous experience in you head say worked for you before. And their turning Gabriel from the former into the latter just illustrates it perfectly.

 

And both Glory and Dr Amari seem to actually be very aware that they just erased G5-19 from existence. The talks with Glory suddenly aren't about saving G5-19, but take a rather explicit turn into her sacrifice and whatnot. The whole talk has the tone that you're killing G5-19, not saving her with some new memories.

 

And yeah, that's what the Railroad is and does: it's a mass operation of erasing synths from existence.

 

You could say that the synths have to give approval, but think about it: they're scared, told that the RR are the only people they can trust, and those people just keep telling them they'll need to have their mind wiped or the big bad institute will find them. Plus none of them have much if any experience with the outside world, so, hey, maybe trust these RR guys. They're the only ones on your side, right? You can trust them, right?

 

For bonus points, I'm also under the impression that synths aren't exactly told that the operation CAN turn them into a brain-dead vegetable. I mean, hey, I'm a full agent and they never told me that I could be helping someone right into a never-ending coma.

 

So, yeah, about the RR... noble my rear...

 

 

That said, yeah, their disregard of humans is another reason why I'm not thrilled to have them in charge of MA. I'm not thrilled about putting the prejudiced BOS in charge as it is, but even less so about putting a group in charge who is not just disconsidering a much larger chunk of the population, but is outright adversarial towards that larger group.

 

And if you want to see how far synths rank above humans for them, you need to look at Fallout 3, actually. I mean, even in FO4, Deacon complains that Desdemona won't approve ANY missions to help humans too. Which is enough to not exactly want them in charge of things, you know? If I can't count on them to give a damn about bad stuff happening to the majority, then why would I want them in charge?

 

But in FO3 it got better. You can ask the railroad gal more than once if they help human slaves too. Nope. And you know those have it real bad. One of the female ex-slaves tells you she was used as a sex slave, i.e., raped regularly. But nah, some synth having to sweep floors in the Institute obviously is in more dire need to be saved.

[Deleted4363562User]

Yeah, those are all very good points, Moraelin. I pretty much agree with you across the board.

[Fkemman11]

I'm going to sound completely like a nerd when I say this, but, what about synths from games/shows. One I can think of is Data from STNG. He is portrayed as a synthetic being forever striving to be more Human. The main difference is that he was only one unique synthetic. Still though there were many instances where he was shown to be susceptible Alien programming making him hostile to the crew and what not. As Moraelin pointed out a synth's AI is a complex computer designed to learn and assimilate specific or various info- much like a humans. But even a very complex CPU can be hacked or damaged causing erratic behavior at the least. It is not a question of whether an AI can think for itself- it is a question of whether they should. the simple fact is that they cannot be given free will or free thought for that matter. They rely on logic alone to dictate their thoughts and actions. Logic alone might lead to many conclusions that would be detrimental to some or all humans. Logic is often tempered with emotion in a Human brain thus giving an alternate conclusion. I think what I am driving at are morals. An AI cannot understand the concept. This is the main reason I would never want to see an AI given self-awareness or free-will for that matter. :turned:

 

Edit; After thinking about it I do think emotions could be simulated in an AI. So they could possibly understand the concept of morality and such. I would still be extremely wary of ever doing such. As the BOS would say- you would be meddling in things that are to unpredictable and possibly extremely dangerous.

 

Sorry for rambling. Its a very interesting subject that has many implications for our future.

[Moraelin]

Well, far as I can tell, the Institute isn't as far as making an AI that can pass the Turing test. They don't have a revolutionary positronic brain to put in their synths. All their computers, including what goes into synsths and the prototype cyborg Kellogg is byte-compatible with pre-war hardware. It's hard to stress that without a long nerdy discussion about computers and architectures, but basically they haven't actually designed a new CPU in 220 years. Hell, they never even fixed the software exploits, since the exact same techniques work to hack their terminals as on any pre-war terminal outside.

 

As I was saying, other than teleportation, their tech seems to have largely stagnated or in some cases even regressed.

 

So, anyway, I don't think they created a Mr Data. Essentially they just took DNA and created a human with some minor changes. Like I would wager they deleted the telomerase gene, which would explain why their synths both can't reproduce and are almost immune to getting cancer from radiation. But they don't seem to understand even the genetics much farther than that, as evidenced by both Virgil's lab and the fact that they needed to steal a pre-war infant. They're not really at the point where they can design much from the ground-up even in genetics.

 

So my take is that the Gen 3 synths basically ARE humans, with some extra chips and conditioning to keep them in line. Not very successfully at that. Maybe 3d-printed humans, but basically still humans. We're not really talking about a Mr Data here.

 

So normally I'd be very inclined to grant them human status, since, really, that's what I think they ARE.

 

BUT, well, here comes that big BUT again, they have those key changes that make them dangerous. And which you can't remove or even detect without killing them. So, well, sad as it may be since they're the victims already, I don't want them around.

 

The analogy I'd make is, well, imagine if someone took some guy from your vilage and returned him with a remote-controlled nuke-mine implanted in them. With some failsafes so you can't remove it without blowing up the village. He's the victim, make no mistake. But... I still wouldn't want him in one of my villages.

[CiderMuffin]

From a tactical military standpoint, destroying the Institute without studying the technology is shortsighted. They need to gain a better understanding of the tech so that they can better combat it

Well in the case of the BoS (and Minutemen) you actually do get the Institute's archives for the factions so the Brotherhood can find synths and understand Institute tech. This is how the Brotherhood finds out about Danse.

 

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Outside_the_Wire

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Inside_Job