Ad Victoriam, But Why?

[Deleted4363562User]

While the question of the synths ultimate purpose is rather vague given the information one can glean from the game, it can be as easily argued that their intelligence is limited by programming and there is no possibility they could evolve to a superior intelligence. As is pointed out elsewhere, the 3^rd generation are closer to clones than robots and a visit to the robotics lab in the Institute seems to suggest this rather strongly. Given the advanced technology of the Institute scientists to create a human replica it is not impossible that the programming of the synths limits their ability to evolve beyond the level of intelligence the scientists program into the synths. This can be somewhat borne out by DiMA who has worked for a significant period of time to overcome its programming without much success.

 

I have a difficult time with the assertion that the BoS is the least racist faction. In looking at any other faction in the game there is no evidence of racism, fascism or misogyny, so I’m not clear on how the BoS is the least racist. In my mind the BoS is much worse than racist. A racist only dislikes a segment of society based upon that segments race. The BoS is elitist and anyone who is not a member of their “cult” is looked upon with distain. The BoS arrives in the Commonwealth and announces they intend to be peaceful, but then land troops and kill everyone and anyone who isn’t a member of their cult. While slightly more benevolent to peaceful settlers by not shooting them immediately, their means of gaining “donations” from the settlers suggests they are not the “good” guys and even less so the faction one would want to have in charge of others.

 

In the question of factions present in the game, it is obvious what the game developers intended in establishing the “personalities” of any given faction. The player is placed in a position to make a choice and the choice is not based on logic backed by fact, but much more on emotion based upon the players personal preferences and perhaps even prejudices.

I do not (and honestly cannot) find fault with any choice a player has made, but I do question the means they may have used to make their choice. It was a very good video, but it left me wondering how some of the ideas presented were evidenced within the game.

 

 

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

 

I admit the video isn't the best. I was partially trying to address how some people associate the BOS with Nazis. That's why I was saying they were the least racist faction ever. Not so much in comparison to the others in Fallout, but more so to factions in general. I was attempting to make the case that they are pure humanists, albeit fanatical and questionable. I wanted the video to be short, and I couldn't articulate everything I wanted in absolute, unequivocal terms. It would've made the video twice as long.

 

I really don't want to go down the road of defending everything the BOS does. That wasn't my aim. I'll criticize them like anyone else. I just think they're currently the best option for humanity. That said, while they are fanatical, they still readily allow anyone to join their ranks, unlike the western chapters. I don't think they're cultist so much as militaristic. Maybe that's splitting hairs? In a combat scenario, that mentality of automated thought is needed. While it's unfavorable in a civil society, it's pragmatic for the current situation. Like I said, I really don't want the BOS rebuilding society in their image. They need to go away at some point. Optimally, they'd become muscle for the Minutemen's Civilian government and maybe form a branch of a checks and balance system.

[Moraelin]

Amari actually says quite explicitly that it would be no problem to transfer the memories into a human brain. It's just the programming part that she needs a synth for.

 

In fact, here's exactly what she says when you ask her about transferring Curie's memories into a HUMAN brain, and this is copy-and-paste straight from the game's strings files: "It's an... interesting problem. The memories wouldn't be hard. We translate those from the brain to computers and back all the time here. It's how the Loungers work."

 

Again, it's only the program part that she needs a synth brain for, or I guess rather the extra circuitry the Institute put in there, because, "A normal, organic brain wouldn't know what to do with them. " Which makes sense. You can't run a computer program on a brain, because the synapses aren't wired to interpret byte code.

 

Edit: which also kind of puts the kibosh on the idea that it has to happen in real time. If the only way to transfer 220 years worth of Curie's memories into a human were to need 220 years, I don't really think Amari would say it's no problem. That human's going to be dead long before that, for a start, which would make it a huge problem.

[Deleted4363562User]

Amari actually says quite explicitly that it would be no problem to transfer the memories into a human brain. It's just the programming part that she needs a synth for.

 

In fact, here's exactly what she says when you ask her about transferring Curie's memories into a HUMAN brain, and this is copy-and-paste straight from the game's strings files: "It's an... interesting problem. The memories wouldn't be hard. We translate those from the brain to computers and back all the time here. It's how the Loungers work."

 

Again, it's only the program part that she needs a synth brain for, or I guess rather the extra circuitry the Institute put in there, because, "A normal, organic brain wouldn't know what to do with them. " Which makes sense. You can't run a computer program on a brain, because the synapses aren't wired to interpret byte code.

 

Edit: which also kind of puts the kibosh on the idea that it has to happen in real time. If the only way to transfer 220 years worth of Curie's memories into a human were to need 220 years, I don't really think Amari would say it's no problem. That human's going to be dead long before that, for a start, which would make it a huge problem.

 

This is where I think Fallout 4's writing both contradicts itself and takes generous leaps in what is physically possible with the human brain. Again, I admit I'm not a brain expert, but I don't think direct transference of data can happen in the brain. It's simply not how human development works or how we can acquire knowledge. There's a big difference between reading a book on Caesar's vast experiences and directly implanting those experiences into your brain. With a book, you're still viewing the information in a real-time format, i.e. the printed words.

 

 

Note: When the player enters the memory lounger or any other similar device in Fallout, it functions as a real-time interface, not a transference of data. So Amari says one thing, and the technology functions in another way.

 

EDIT: What Amari might mean is that they can "read" and store memories with the lounger and then "present" them to other people in an accessible format. She does say "translate" and not "implant". I don't know. :laugh:

[Moraelin]

Well, it IS science-fiction. I don't expect it to be 100% accurate or consistent.

 

I'll even agree with you that it does suffer from the common SF disease of coming up with some miraculous solution, and then promptly forgetting that it ever existed. Kinda like Star Trek does all the time.

 

Nevertheless, if it's what's stated in the game, I'll take it as lore gospel so to speak.

 

 

Now if we're to go into the neuroscience of it, TECHNICALLY if you could replicate the synapse configuration and strength of each connection, you could transfer memories and even personality. In the end, when it comes to taking a decision based on that data, that's what matters. It wouldn't matter how the data got there. All the consecutive world models that happen in Piaget's four stages, and the resolution of conflicts in the model via cognitive dissonance, etc, are just how the data normally gets there. But when it comes to using that data, all that matters is the current model, not how you got to it.

 

I will agree though that I can't imagine any feasible way to do that in any foreseeable future, and much less in a world like Fallout where technology slowed to a crawl in the 1950's to 1960's. So in the real world, yeah, that probably wouldn't happen. For better or worse, the only way to get memories up there is the old fashioned way.

 

But, again, it's science-fiction. Emphasis on fiction. Inventing technologies that are indistinguishable from magic is really what the genre is all about. If it were 100% accurate to our current understanding of science and technology, it wouldn't be science fiction. It would just be modern day fiction.

[Deleted4363562User]

Well, it IS science-fiction. I don't expect it to be 100% accurate or consistent.

 

I'll even agree with you that it does suffer from the common SF disease of coming up with some miraculous solution, and then promptly forgetting that it ever existed. Kinda like Star Treck does all the time.

 

Nevertheless, if it's what's stated in the game, I'll take it as lore gospel so to speak.

 

 

Now if we're to go into the neuroscience of it, TECHNICALLY if you could replicate the synapse configuration and strength of each connection, you could transfer memories and even personality. In the end, when it comes to taking a decision based on that data, that's what matters. It wouldn't matter how the data got there. All the consecutive world models that happen in Piaget's four stages, and the resolution of conflicts in the model via cognitive dissonance, etc, are just how the data normally gets there. But when it comes to using that data, all that matters is the current model, not how you got to it.

 

I will agree though that I can't imagine any feasible way to do that in any foreseeable future, and much less in a world like Fallout where technology slowed to a crawl in the 1950's to 1960's. So in the real world, yeah, that probably wouldn't happen. For better or worse, the only way to get memories up there is the old fashioned way.

 

But, again, it's science-fiction. Emphasis on fiction. Inventing technologies that are indistinguishable from magic is really what the genre is all about. If it were 100% accurate to our current understanding of science and technology, it wouldn't be science fiction. It would just be modern day fiction.

 

 

Oh for sure. We're in mostly conjecture at this point. Heavy conjecture. It's fun to talk about if nothing else. Not sure if you saw my edit, but after thinking about it, it seems that Amari might not even be talking about direct memory transference. She says "translate". So that seems to indicate a significant difference in meaning. She probably has the tech to interpret human memories into a computer readable format, but not implant them into a brain. So the solution is the lounger's VR presentation of memories. Again, probably conjecture. :laugh:

 

But... if we get back to what Justin Ayo was saying about the Synth Retention Process...he does refer to "the delicate process of restoring the neural pathways to their original configuration." So you may have a point still. We just don't know enough about the tech. That would be wild if they indeed could manipulate brain matter directly. But that just makes Shaun's cancer seem even more absurd. :laugh:

[Moraelin]

I don't think they said it was brain cancer, though.

 

As for Amari, to repeat myself, what she does say in the game about transferring memories to a human brain is that "The memories wouldn't be hard." NOT that it's impossible to transfer data in that direction.

 

I'm all for conjecture, really, but for me what's stated in the actual game takes priority. I'm kinda that way about lore. Don't get me wrong, I couldn't really care less about whether someone is really going against it in a mod or machinima or in-game kinda story -- and have done so myself repeatedly; hell my FO3 Sam And Max graphical novel pretty much took the actual lore and turned it on its head for lulz -- but when it comes to discussing what IS actually happening in that lore, I kinda treat it with reverence.

 

I'm kinda like the Moth Priests that way, all about studying Elder Scrolls and treating them with reverence. And, hey, they did say I'd go blind if I don't cut it out. Oh wait, that wasn't about scrolls :wink:

[Deleted4363562User]

The game never states what kind of cancer it is. Regardless, it's hard to believe that cancer of any kind would pose a problem to people who could literally manipulate neurons and synapses. That was my point.

 

I'm sorry if you're repeating yourself and I'm just not getting it. :confused: But "translate" is not "transfer." That seems like a significant difference. I don't think that's just semantics. Maybe you can explain why that doesn't matter?

 

My line of reasoning persists. The memory loungers are not actually transferring data to humans but rather presenting it in an accessible VR format. Curie and Synths can interact with the memory loungers differently because they don't need data to be translated into another format. They can accept byte programming directly. Thus, they can have a direct, instantaneous transference of raw data or programming.

[Moraelin]

1. Well, it doesn't matter because she says that transferring 220 years worth of memories into a human brain wouldn't be too hard. Not only she doesn't say it's impossible, but she says it's not even hard. I don't know HOW she plans to do it. Transfer, translation, magic, whatever. But she says it's not even hard to do. So any speculation to the effect that it might be impossible is directly contrary to what's actually stated in the game. You're essentially trying to override actual lore with your own speculation.

 

That said, even the speculation that it might be one-way, also flies in the face that her actual statement is, "We translate those from the brain to computers AND BACK all the time." My emphasis. And "those" being memories. So whatever way they use to translate from synapse connections to computer data, they have a way to translate BACK. That's explicitly stated in the game.

 

It's not even just an Amari-only thing. Robo-brains are also stated to be mind-wiped regularly, and that's pre-war tech, and it IS a human brain. So even before the war, yes, they could reconfigure synapses in a HUMAN brain.

 

Again, I don't know how they do it. It could be elven magic for all I care. But between Amari, Ayo, The Mechanist and the info in Automatron terminals, it's made amply clear that, yes, they can reconfigure synapses. Hell if I know how, but they can.

 

 

2. Furthermore it's stated that that translating from synapses to computer data AND BACK (again my emphasis) is how the VR loungers work. Any speculation that directly contradicts in game lore can't override the actual in-game lore. You can fill in the blanks, but you can't override actual lore where it doesn't actually have a blank. If their loungers work by transferring information into your brani, hey, that's how they work.

 

 

3. And it doesn't really matter if it's realistic or not. Most SF isn't very realistic.

 

It's kinda like Star Wars lightsaber or blasters. Or plasma weapons in Star Trek, or their minuscule use of antimatter compared to the stated power, to not give those a free pass. We could spend pages documenting very scientifically why a lightsaber can't work in our universe the way it's stated, or why a plasma weapon can't work, or how the Enterprise should be burning through antimatter like a WW1 battleship burned coal to achieve the stated power output of the warp core, or what the problems would be with using a black hole as a power source in a Romulan ship. (It would have 100% conversion efficiency though, which is more than I can say about antimatter.) And we may even be right for OUR universe. But in their universe, if they say a plasma weapon works, then it works. That's the lore.

 

Same here, really. We may even agree that it's not very realistic, but, eh, that's in OUR universe. In the FO4 universe different rules apply.

[Moraelin]

THAT said, I still don't really see the connection between rewiring synapses and cancer. From where I stand, they seem to be very different issues. The biology of the two isn't even remotely related or similar. Plus there's more than one kind of cancer, so there's no telling if someone even can cure ALL of them. But I'm willing to be enlightened by someone who knows more about biology than I do.

 

The only things that seem to suggest they might have SOME kind of control at least over some kinds of cancer are...

 

Well, before I get into that, it probably helps if we clear at least the terms. Your cells have a maximum division counter, in the form of some extra random DNA at the end of each chromosome. They're called "telomeres". Each division subtracts 1 from that counter. As long as you have more than zero, the cell can divide to repair damage to your body. It reaches zero, it can't divide to repair damage, and when enough damage can't be repaired, you die of old age. It seems like a downside, but it's also why the first herpes (which makes cells divide out of control) doesn't kill you. Any mutation or virus which makes cells just start dividing, eventually reaches the end of the countdown and stops dividing.

 

To get a full fledged cancer one mechanism or another must activate that lets cells divide past the limit.

 

One such mechanism and the most common is the telomerase gene, which basically resets the counter to the initial value. Now why would you have such a gene in your body, which can kill you by cancer? Well, because new people have to start with the full countdown, or each generation would live a lot shorter than the previous one, and after a couple of generations you couldn't reproduce any more. Telomerase is mostly there so the species doesn't die out. But, as you've seen, it's a two edged sword.

 

The second mechanism for cancer, by more than an order of magnitude behind activating telomerase, is mistaken activation of DNA repair mechanisms.

 

So what's wrong with the Institute's inability to treat cancer, then?

 

A. they apparently figured out how to stop synths from getting a cancer from radiation. My best guess, as I've said, would involve deleting the telomerase gene, which would prevent about 95% of cancers from dividing past a certain point. Along with preventing you from having offspring that live too long.

 

B. they somehow managed to prolong Kellogg's life A LOT, which would suggest the exact contrary: extending the telomeres, possibly by deliberately expressing telomerase. Yet he didn't die of cancer. So it seems like the MIGHT actually be able to control at least SOME forms of cancer.

 

The fly in the ointment though is that:

 

- in neither case is messing with telomerase the only way to do that. E.g., in Kellogg's case they could have just used some hypothetical SF antioxidants to just make his body need less repairs per year.

 

- neither can stop ALL cancers. So there may still be something about Father's cancer that isn't stopped that way. I mean, maybe his is the DNA repair type, not the telomerase type of cancer, for example. (DNA repair type IS more common in old people.)

 

- they may not actually have figured out how to delete or suppress telomerase in a living human. Just because they engineered some DNA for new synths, doesn't mean they know how to affect every cell in your body when you're already a full human. (Although, you'd THINK they'd figure out some kind of anti-telomerase vaccine in 200 years. It's something people are researching right now in our universe. Would get rid of all hair and nails, and instantly sterilize you, but, hey... cancer too.)

 

- suppressing telomerase in an already old guy is probably not going to help much. Essentially he'd go from a lot of damage can't be repaired, to NO damage can be repaired. You'd just kill him with the cure.

 

But again, that's just us having a nerdy discussion. In-game they can't cure it, so that's that. Nothing we can say is going to override in-game lore.

[Deleted4363562User]

1. Well, it doesn't matter because she says that transferring 220 years worth of memories into a human brain wouldn't be too hard. Not only she doesn't say it's impossible, but she says it's not even hard. I don't know HOW she plans to do it. Transfer, translation, magic, whatever. But she says it's not even hard to do. So any speculation to the effect that it might be impossible is directly contrary to what's actually stated in the game. You're essentially trying to override actual lore with your own speculation.

 

That said, even the speculation that it might be one-way, also flies in the face that her actual statement is, "We translate those from the brain to computers AND BACK all the time." My emphasis. And "those" being memories. So whatever way they use to translate from synapse connections to computer data, they have a way to translate BACK. That's explicitly stated in the game.

 

It's not even just an Amari-only thing. Robo-brains are also stated to be mind-wiped regularly, and that's pre-war tech, and it IS a human brain. So even before the war, yes, they could reconfigure synapses in a HUMAN brain.

 

Again, I don't know how they do it. It could be elven magic for all I care. But between Amari, Ayo, The Mechanist and the info in Automatron terminals, it's made amply clear that, yes, they can reconfigure synapses. Hell if I know how, but they can.

 

 

2. Furthermore it's stated that that translating from synapses to computer data AND BACK (again my emphasis) is how the VR loungers work. Any speculation that directly contradicts in game lore can't override the actual in-game lore. You can fill in the blanks, but you can't override actual lore where it doesn't actually have a blank. If their loungers work by transferring information into your brani, hey, that's how they work.

 

 

3. And it doesn't really matter if it's realistic or not. Most SF isn't very realistic.

 

It's kinda like Star Wars lightsaber or blasters. Or plasma weapons in Star Trek, or their minuscule use of antimatter compared to the stated power, to not give those a free pass. We could spend pages documenting very scientifically why a lightsaber can't work in our universe the way it's stated, or why a plasma weapon can't work, or how the Enterprise should be burning through antimatter like a WW1 battleship burned coal to achieve the stated power output of the warp core, or what the problems would be with using a black hole as a power source in a Romulan ship. (It would have 100% conversion efficiency though, which is more than I can say about antimatter.) And we may even be right for OUR universe. But in their universe, if they say a plasma weapon works, then it works. That's the lore.

 

Same here, really. We may even agree that it's not very realistic, but, eh, that's in OUR universe. In the FO4 universe different rules apply.

 

 

Your point about the Robo Brains is well taken. I can't argue with that. That is explicitly stated.

 

I'm still not convinced about Doctor Amari and the Loungers. :laugh: Sorry. I mean, Amari says she can easily transfer Curie's memories into a synth brain. The 220 years of memory in question belong to a robot and are being transferred into a synth. Other than the Robo Brain having memory wipes and alterations there's no evidence in Fallout that that kind of tech exists....that I know of anyway. But the Robo Brain evidence might be more than enough to force me to concede that it's possible in the timeline. That would also support your notion that the Institute Synths are indeed more like clones with minor hardware added.

 

The latter I still find a bit hard to believe, given the way Institute scientists talk about synths. Cloning is well documented in the Fallout universe, and I think it would be odd for CIT descendants to conflate clones with machines. I mean, once you became the Director, I don't see why they wouldn't admit: "hey synths are basically cloned humans that we learned how to control as slaves with additional hardware." I mean, you're gonna find that out sooner or later. Furthermore, Father and Ayo are always stating that they ARE machines, regardless of however much they APPROXIMATE humans.

 

Also, I wasn't trying to say that the memory loungers were "one way". I was saying that they could interpret memories from human brains into byte data, store it, and then "play it" back to other humans in VR so it would be "experienced" not "transferred". The limitation to direct transference being the human brain, not the lounger. Thus the lounger could directly transfer Curie's memories and data onto a synthetic brain.