Ad Victoriam, But Why?

[Moraelin]

Yes, but the point where she says it's not even hard, is when you're still talking about transferring Curie into a HUMAN brain. She only brings up the synth brain AFTER that, quite explicitly as a solution to a very different problem.

[Deleted4363562User]

THAT said, I still don't really see the connection between rewiring synapses and cancer. From where I stand, they seem to be very different issues. The biology of the two isn't even remotely related or similar. Plus there's more than one kind of cancer, so there's no telling if someone even can cure ALL of them. But I'm willing to be enlightened by someone who knows more about biology than I do.

 

The only things that seem to suggest they might have SOME kind of control at least over some kinds of cancer are...

 

Well, before I get into that, it probably helps if we clear at least the terms. Your cells have a maximum division counter, in the form of some extra random DNA at the end of each chromosome. They're called "telomeres". Each division subtracts 1 from that counter. As long as you have more than zero, the cell can divide to repair damage to your body. It reaches zero, it can't divide to repair damage, and when enough damage can't be repaired, you die of old age. It seems like a downside, but it's also why the first herpes (which makes cells divide out of control) doesn't kill you. Any mutation or virus which makes cells just start dividing, eventually reaches the end of the countdown and stops dividing.

 

To get a full fledged cancer one mechanism or another must activate that lets cells divide past the limit.

 

One such mechanism and the most common is the telomerase gene, which basically resets the counter to the initial value. Now why would you have such a gene in your body, which can kill you by cancer? Well, because new people have to start with the full countdown, or each generation would live a lot shorter than the previous one, and after a couple of generations you couldn't reproduce any more. Telomerase is mostly there so the species doesn't die out. But, as you've seen, it's a two edged sword.

 

The second mechanism for cancer, by more than an order of magnitude behind activating telomerase, is mistaken activation of DNA repair mechanisms.

 

So what's wrong with the Institute's inability to treat cancer, then?

 

A. they apparently figured out how to stop synths from getting a cancer from radiation. My best guess, as I've said, would involve deleting the telomerase gene, which would prevent about 95% of cancers from dividing past a certain point. Along with preventing you from having offspring that live too long.

 

B. they somehow managed to prolong Kellogg's life A LOT, which would suggest the exact contrary: extending the telomeres, possibly by deliberately expressing telomerase. Yet he didn't die of cancer. So it seems like the MIGHT actually be able to control at least SOME forms of cancer.

 

The fly in the ointment though is that:

 

- in neither case is messing with telomerase the only way to do that. E.g., in Kellogg's case they could have just used some hypothetical SF antioxidants to just make his body need less repairs per year.

 

- neither can stop ALL cancers. So there may still be something about Father's cancer that isn't stopped that way. I mean, maybe his is the DNA repair type, not the telomerase type of cancer, for example. (DNA repair type IS more common in old people.)

 

- they may not actually have figured out how to delete or suppress telomerase in a living human. Just because they engineered some DNA for new synths, doesn't mean they know how to affect every cell in your body when you're already a full human. (Although, you'd THINK they'd figure out some kind of anti-telomerase vaccine in 200 years. It's something people are researching right now in our universe. Would get rid of all hair and nails, and instantly sterilize you, but, hey... cancer too.)

 

- suppressing telomerase in an already old guy is probably not going to help much. Essentially he'd go from a lot of damage can't be repaired, to NO damage can be repaired. You'd just kill him with the cure.

 

But again, that's just us having a nerdy discussion. In-game they can't cure it, so that's that. Nothing we can say is going to override in-game lore.

 

I suppose, I find it hard to believe that they developed so extremely far in one area of human biology and yet not in another. It's not impossible. I just think it's improbable. Like, you pointed out, cancer isn't a mystery, and it hasn't been for a long time. I think we're also forgetting that they CAN manipulate every cell in the human body. They have the molecular relay which can disassemble and reassemble you on a molecular level.

 

I honestly found it odd that they didn't weaponize it and demolecularize the Prydwen. :laugh:

[Deleted4363562User]

Yes, but the point where she says it's not even hard, is when you're still talking about transferring Curie into a HUMAN brain. She only brings up the synth brain AFTER that, quite explicitly as a solution to a very different problem.

 

Ah. Well...you're right.

 

It's dissatisfying to me that the memory loungers basically function as VR up until then, when they're suddenly used very differently as a character development device. But, you're right. :thumbsup:

[Moraelin]

As for their treating synths as machines, you're told from the start that they used human DNA to make the synths. In fact, that's why "Father" is called "Father". It's his DNA being used to make synths.

 

And they actually tried to use FEV to turn humans into synths, before they gave up on that and kidnapped a baby instead.

 

Now that may sound not very conclusive about how much of that DNA goes into the brain structure, but we have a very important clue about the brain in Fallout 3: if you hand over the runaway courser Harkness to Dr Zimmer, you can get a courser aim chip implanted into you by none other than the man, the legend, the head of SRB, Dr Zimmer himself. And it works flawlessly in you. Does the same thing as in a courser.

 

And if you read the Institute terminals in FO4, you can find out where that implant goes: "In select Gen 3 units, the synthetic brain is indeed capable of accepting specific enhancements to the visual cortex, basal ganglia and right parietal cortex." That's interfacing with the brain all right. BUT again, it interfaces with the brain of the FO3 character just fine.

 

So I guess one of the following must be true. Either

A) it interfaces just the same with a human brain, hence the synth brain is not very different from a human brain, or

B) the Fallout 3 character is a synth.

 

You'd expect though that if B were the case, AND human brains were that different from synths brains, then when Zimmer opens you up, he'd figure out it ain't a human brain in your noggin. "Hey, look, it has synth chips in the head." And probably next thing you know, you'd wake up sweeping floors in the Institute and not remembering that you ever were in DC :tongue:

 

Well, be that as it may, we have a further indication in FO4, on another terminal. Namely, Binet's terminal. When investigating why do synths like fancy lads cakes so much, he mentions "Quadruple-checked the neural mappings." So, you know, I'm guessing that some neurons might be involved.

[Moraelin]

I suppose, I find it hard to believe that they developed so extremely far in one area of human biology and yet not in another. It's not impossible. I just think it's improbable. Like, you pointed out, cancer isn't a mystery, and it hasn't been for a long time. I think we're also forgetting that they CAN manipulate every cell in the human body. They have the molecular relay which can disassemble and reassemble you on a molecular level.

 

I honestly found it odd that they didn't weaponize it and demolecularize the Prydwen. :laugh:

So basically the same as when Star Trek pulls some transporter or deflector magic in one episode, and then forgets it ever was an option in about two dozen episodes where that would have saved the day? :tongue:

 

Yeah, it's a general illness of SF to not fully explore the implications of some McGuffin or such, beyond advancing the plot once. And yeah, Beth has that problem too, Bit unsatisfying, as you say, but... what can you do?

[Deleted4363562User]

As for their treating synths as machines, you're told from the start that they used human DNA to make the synths. In fact, that's why "Father" is called "Father". It's his DNA being used to make synths.

 

And they actually tried to use FEV to turn humans into synths, before they gave up on that and kidnapped a baby instead.

 

Now that may sound not very conclusive about how much of that DNA goes into the brain structure, but we have a very important clue about the brain in Fallout 3: if you hand over the runaway courser Harkness to Dr Zimmer, you can get a courser aim chip implanted into you by none other than the man, the legend, the head of SRB, Dr Zimmer himself. And it works flawlessly in you. Does the same thing as in a courser.

 

And if you read the Institute terminals in FO4, you can find out where that implant goes: "In select Gen 3 units, the synthetic brain is indeed capable of accepting specific enhancements to the visual cortex, basal ganglia and right parietal cortex." That's interfacing with the brain all right. BUT again, it interfaces with the brain of the FO3 character just fine.

 

So I guess one of the following must be true. Either

A) it interfaces just the same with a human brain, hence the synth brain is not very different from a human brain, or

B) the Fallout 3 character is a synth.

 

You'd expect though that if B were the case, AND human brains were that different from synths brains, then when Zimmer opens you up, he'd figure out it ain't a human brain in your noggin. "Hey, look, it has synth chips in the head." And probably next thing you know, you'd wake up sweeping floors in the Institute and not remembering that you ever were in DC :tongue:

 

Well, be that as it may, we have a further indication in FO4, on another terminal. Namely, Binet's terminal. When investigating why do synths like fancy lads cakes so much, he mentions "Quadruple-checked the neural mappings." So, you know, I'm guessing that some neurons might be involved.

 

 

:laugh: Or C:

 

Fallout 4's writers weren't overly concerned with previous lore? I mean, if synths are basically human clones, why is there any distinction? Why would the Institute even need to grow and assemble them in a lab. It also doesn't account for how Synths get up and walk around right away after "birth". Humans can't do that. Unless, of course, they CAN directly manipulate their neural configuration.

 

Or on the other hand, the synth parts could house some sort of basic motor control functions that allow for very basic commands to be executed and followed. This would get them into the next room where their "neurons are delicately configured."

 

Regardless, if this is indeed the case, it changes the entire narrative of the game. I have my doubts. it means that rather than replace humans, the Institute could just kidnap them and reconfigure their neural pathways.

[Deleted4363562User]

 

I suppose, I find it hard to believe that they developed so extremely far in one area of human biology and yet not in another. It's not impossible. I just think it's improbable. Like, you pointed out, cancer isn't a mystery, and it hasn't been for a long time. I think we're also forgetting that they CAN manipulate every cell in the human body. They have the molecular relay which can disassemble and reassemble you on a molecular level.

 

I honestly found it odd that they didn't weaponize it and demolecularize the Prydwen. :laugh:

So basically the same as when Star Trek pulls some transporter or deflector magic in one episode, and then forgets it ever was an option in about two dozen episodes where that would have saved the day? :tongue:

 

Yeah, it's a general illness of SF to not fully explore the implications of some McGuffin or such, beyond advancing the plot once. And yeah, Beth has that problem too, Bit unsatisfying, as you say, but... what can you do?

 

 

 

Maybe I'm being unfair, but Beth has been particularly bad with this over the past few years. I probably am being unfair. I mean, I'm playing Mass Effect Andromeda right now, but I'm not shitting all over Bioware for their "universal translators" that render alien voices with Australian and Nigerian accents. :laugh:

[Moraelin]

Well, Beth generally doesn't seem as fixed on lore as some of their fans are, so, yeah, that IS a possibility. I mean, just in FO4, they went from cats being extinct to cats being everywhere, prompting some fans to speculate that maybe there was a vault for crazy cat people that opened recently :tongue:

 

I don't see anything that contradicts previous lore about the synths, though. In fact, they went the extra mile to actually put a message on a terminal to tell you point-blank that what Dr Zimmer calls "android" in Fallout 3 is the same thing as the synths of Fallout 4. Seems to me like SOMEONE at Beth wanted to connect previous lore there.

 

Mind you, I'll agree that the whole Institute thing seems to be a case of not fully thinking out all ramifications. I think they just were supposed to be over-the-top evil slavers, rather than people who get deeply philosophical about whether clones are really humans and whether they should get rights.

 

And, as Deacon lampshades it in the discussion at the start of the switchboard, people are more interested in saving something that's nearly human than something that looks like a terminator. Most people wouldn't be very interested in saving synths if Gen 2 were the top of the line. I'm thinking they HAD to make them pretty human for most players to even get the slavery angle.

 

I mean, let's be honest, imagine if you had protectrons instead of synths. How many people would think that the Railroad has a point? Most of us would just go, eh, the Institute has a point, they ARE machines, and the RR are a bunch of nutcases. Or how many would have a problem with the BOS hunting them down if they were protectrons? We have no problem with shooting even friendly protectrons. I'm willing to bet that nobody ever reloaded just because they accidentally shot the protectron in front of Wattz Consumer Electronics in the face.

 

Probably not the most subtle way to make the case, but, eh, that's Beth games for ya. For better or worse :tongue:

[Deleted4363562User]

In terms of Android/Synth contradictions between 3 and 4. I just meant that there's a narrative suggesting that Synths are different from humans in both games, yet in Fallout 4 some of the evidence we talked about here contradicts that notion. But as you mentioned, it boils down to writers not considering all the ramifications of lore and tech. Rightly so, I think. It would make story boarding way harder than it needs to be, considering the majority of the audience. Not many take the tech and lore cohesion to this level, which does make me a little sad, cause I think the whole premise of Fallout is fascinating.

 

It's interesting that you point out that people are more willing to save something that looks more human. This is totally true. But it goes in another direction as well. People are willing to place blind faith into the belief that something that looks human IS both human and philanthropic. People are always shocked to find out their neighbor was a serial killer. "He was such a nice guy who went to church every week".

 

Personally, I grew up around a clinical psychopath and have always been fascinated by manipulative behavior. The whole veil of the psychopath is something I seem to place on top of Synths at this point. It's why I stuck that footage from Ex Machina into the video. It's pretty disturbing to watch an actual psychopath "drop the act" and show their true colors.

[Moraelin]

Well, for what it's worth, you have my sincere sympathy.

 

Not sure if ALL synths are psychopaths though. In fact, most don't really seem to fit the Hare Psychopathy Checklist-Revised profile, I would say. But I'm not really qualified to make that diagnostic, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

Just about the only thing that is an item on that list is the deception, but, eh, even taking that as confirmed, it's scoring 2 on that checklist, which is the average for the regular population outside prisons. And even then it's only those used for infiltrations.

 

Plus, honestly, they're forced to. They're put in a situation where either the Institute or the friends of the victim WILL kill them if they failed the infiltration. The Goodneighbour triggermen aren't exactly taking prisoners, nor does the Compound, nor do other vigilante groups like the UP Deathclaws, plus see in Diamond City how even the guy's brother pulled a gun on him at the mere suspicion of being a synth. So I wouldn't say it's an indication that they enjoy deception. They're put in a situation where they do or die, and apparently most just die.

 

Or think of it in justice terms. You can't really establish the mens rea (evil intent) if the guy was coerced to do the evil deed. If the following are met (using the American law criteria), and they ARE in the synth's case, it qualifies as being done under duress:

 

1. The threat must be of serious bodily harm or death

2. The threatened harm must be greater than the harm caused by the crime

3. The threat must be immediate and inescapable

4. The defendant must have become involved in the situation through no fault of his own

 

And, honestly, all four apply and then some.

 

1. The threat IS death.

2. The harm in etting killed is obviously greater than that of spying on someone. Or at least an average person threatened with death would generally rationalize it that way.

3. The threat is rather immediate, as people tend to kill you on the spot.

And it's rather inescapable. Running away will just get you hunted down by a courser (or worse, Kellogg) and killed or mind-wiped, which is to say, erased from existence. And going back to the institute is hardly an option, seein' as they planned to let even the loyal DC mayor be "decommissioned in the field" (read: killed) rather than extract him. So it's inescapable in that ALL the option have a near-certainty of ending in your ceasing to exist.

4. I don't think synths have the freedom to choose their own missions. In fact, as evidenced in the mayor's case, even asking for a next assignment or pointing out your merits to the Institute is evidence of too much self-awareness and will result in your termination or mind-wipe.

 

So it seems to me a bit unfair to blame it on psychopathy. We don't really have the evidence to blame it on that, when duress would compel one to do the same even without being a psychopath.