Very Low Quality Mods

[David Brasher]

Downloading Oblivion mods can be pretty depressing. I recently downloaded and played three mods and all of them were riddled with serious bugs. Verifiable objective bugs. Bugs that could be seen on anyone's machine. Bugs that everyone would agree are bugs, not matters of opinion that people could argue about. These are not issues of art or taste, these are mechanistic pass/fail issues where the modder did it wrong.

 

Why can't we have better mods?

 

 

Things modders should do:

 

(1) Learn how to mod right.

 

(2) Pay attention to detail. Double-check your work.

 

(3) Think about the gamers while doing the work. Think about how they will look at the mod and how they will play it. Make it in such a fashion that they won't have cause to complain.

 

(4) Play-test your work. You are the one who knows your mod best. You know how it is supposed to work and how to fix it if it is broken. It is more efficient for you to diagnose and fix your own bugs than to have outsiders do it and then leave negative comments.

 

(5) Play-test your work again. I bet you missed at least one bug in your first play-test.

 

(6) Clean your mods. You need to use TES4Edit to auto-clean all the mods you upload. But before you do this you need to manually clean your mod by examining every item in the list of edits. The most dangerous mod dirt is not seen and removed by the TES4Edit auto-clean process.

 

(7) Document your work. You need to write a readme and package it with your mod. You need to have a decent mod description to put at the download point. You need to name your mod descriptively. "GRE4766_2.esp" is a lousy name. Why not name it something like "Dark Dungeon" or "Ebony Armor by SlasherBoy?" You need to take some screenshots to put on the download page.

 

( 8 ) Read your comments and personal messages concerning your mod. Gamers who download your mod are an invaluable source of play-testing. They may have a different play style than you and be able to locate bugs you cannot. Don't get all offended by comments about whether people liked your mod and by error reports. Don't kill the messenger. It is your fault that the bug is in your mod, not the fault of the gamer who has been victimized by it.

 

(9) Fix your broken mods. When error reports are given to you and you verify that that the bugs really are there and can be duplicated on your machine, do something about it! Ideally you should fix the mod and upload a new version. Failing that, change your documentation to explain what the bugs are and why you can't fix them. Explain how to work out around them. If the bugs are really severe, hide your mod to prevent people from downloading it until you can get a new version made.

 

 

Things gamers should do:

 

(1) Give the modders feedback. Leave comments to say what you enjoyed about the mod. Also say what you did not enjoy about the mod. Most importantly turn in your bug reports. If the modder does not seem to be seeing your comment at the download point, then send a personal message.

 

(2) Remember to go back and endorse mods that you really like after the waiting period is over. This encourages modders to do good work. Never ever endorse a mod unless you like it and think it is of high quality. If you endorse a mod, and then find major bugs, remove your endorsement until the modder has fixed the issue, then you can endorse again. If a modder asks you to endorse his or her mod, refuse. Endorsements are only to be given voluntarily and on your own impulse because you are really pleased by a mod.

 

(3) Pay attention to the quality of your error reports. Try to say exactly where you were and exactly what happened. The modder will never fix the bug if he or she can't find what you are talking about. If you have a bit of modding skill, you can give very very accurate and useful bug reports indeed. You can use tools like the CS, Wrye Bash, TES4Edit, and NifSkope to verify and diagnose problems. If you give a modder an error report like that saying exactly what is wrong and how to fix it, they have absolutely no excuse to not fix it. If they whine that they are too busy, then they have no business having a mod available for download like that. They need to either pull down their mod, change the documentation, or set it free to the public domain and label it as an abandoned mod with almost no rights reserved. There is no excuse. Bad mods should be fixed, documented, or pulled down.

 

 

People can do better at this. We should not have to suffer with very low quality mods. What kind of customer service is this? If you are a modder, then make good mods. If you are a gamer, refuse to put up with bad mods. If fifty people download a bad mod and all fifty of them send in error reports, then I bet that mod will get fixed or pulled down in short order and the rest of the Oblivion community will be spared having to face this bad mod. And in this scenario, if the modder is a total loser and leaves the bad mod up, there will be 50 warnings for other gamers to steer clear of the mod, and the download rate will drop down near to zero.

 

 

And yes. I am a modder and a gamer. I attack myself along with attacking you. I too am guilty of producing buggy mods and not fixing them good enough or in a timely enough fashion. As a gamer, I am sometimes guilty of not reporting the bugs I find or of failing to endorse mods after the waiting period ends. But I am aware of these issues and try to avoid these behaviors. Can you say the same?

Edited February 4, 2012 by David Brasher

[Nephenee13]

Why Can't People Get Their Acts Together?

 

Flippantly, Sturgeon's Law provides the answer.

 

More seriously, I agree on both sides of your little rant. My modding hasn't reached the level of making a dungeon or whatnot (and it may never, I don't find the idea of doing such a thing very appealing), but I definitely do my best to make sure that what I've done is fully documented, clearly titled (I've developed my own naming scheme that if I had my druthers I'd apply to ever armor and clothing mod on this site and make everyone's life 500% easier) and illustrated with helpful images.

 

As a user, I've done my best with feedback, and to help solve other people's problems with mods that I have experience with.

 

I wish everyone, modder and user alike could work together to make everyone's lives easier, but large senses of entitlement on both sides get in the way. But its like that with every endeavor of this sort, unfortunately. I see much the same reaction in other non-videogame modding but still fan-work dominated areas.

[DrakeTheDragon]

You're right. I shall remove "Argonian Beautification", "Scripted Argonian Feet" and "Drake's Anthro-Dragon Race WIP pre-beta releases" from the mod database immediately.

 

Argonian Beautification packages for Vanilla Male, Vanilla Female and Bab are still missing the v3.0 final upgrade I gave all the other packages for Robert's Male V3.x, V4, V5, Breeze's Defined Male Body, Team Fantasy Figures, Exnem/HGEC and Robert Female,

all of its former requirements have by now vanished from the scene and I'm hosting the required files at the same place in seperate downloads still, while intending to "include" them with the main packages for over a year already now,

its folder structures are overly convoluted, no matter I gave them the big "BAIN-ready" complete redesign with the v3.0 upgrade already, and the manual install instructions, telling you what to do step-by-step, are a total mess anyways, according to some people's feedback I received to the matter.

 

Scripted Argonian Feet is still missing Base Body Mesh packages for any other body than Robert's Male V3.x, V4, V5, Breeze's Defined Male Body, Team Fantasy Figures, Exnem/HGEC and Robert's Female,

the packages with a adapted NIF files for at least the whole of Vanilla assets, so those items can be worn by Argonians without them loosing their feet and bent legs, I intended to create/compile ages ago still are nowhere near completed,

compared to the latest state of development in my custom body mesh and adapted items exchange control scripts the scripts used in SAF are far outdated by now and even the aforementioned version hasn't yet reached completion itself.

 

Drake's Anthro-Dragon Race, the race my main character is of and I'm mainly playing myself, is still in experimental WIP state and hasn't even reached beta state, yet I was as irresponsible as to release it already in this immature and unfinished state because people were begging for a preview release for ages. It's scripting approach, as close to the latest state of my approach as possible, still has a major flaw in controlling the upperbody slot, which simply fails completely, enabling people to equip any upperbody clothing item they like, no matter if it's fitting the unique anatomy and required body mods or not, and I still couldn't manage to fix it for 2 years now! Without any adapted clothing/armor items released it isn't even usable in the long term, as you can't wear anything much at all. Granted, I put a big red "do not use in a serious game!" sticker right on top, as it is only a test-release, and a very WIP one still, but it was indeed irresponsible of me to expose the members of the community to this dangerous risk of messing up their game by installing it!

 

For 2 years now, since my laptop died and almost took all my files with it, since I got an email from my employer telling me I don't need to come to work next month as the institute can't afford to pay 2 workers anymore and the other one was more knowledgeable with the new type of robots going to be used from now on, since I had to move out of my apartment at university because I was over the maximum amount of semesters allowed, since my father died of a liver tumor and we had to take care of the burial and all the official stuff afterwards, since I was no longer able to continue my studies at university although I'm only 2 oral exams, 1 project work and the diploma thesis away from being done, since I had to take a 400€ job in my brothers little web programming company to afford my living, now working from 15:00 in the afternoon where I get up till 8:00 in the morning where I go to bed, since I'm working on a MacBook only able to go on modding Oblivion on a virtual machine we need for an antiquated project timer client only running on windows, since the total amount of free time I have to spend into my modding projects to at least help keep my sanity sums up to 1 day per month, I'm trying to "get my acts together" as desperately as I can manage... but guess what? I failed... and continue to fail again every time I try.

 

But I agree, that's no excuse for keeping this bug-ridden, unfinished, half-arsed crap I call my mods up for download and other people to fall victim to its over-complicated means of installation, trying to follow my confusing-like-hell readmes telling you to click a button and let OBMM convert the whole file into an OMOD, using my conversion data and install scripts making the actual install of my junk just a matter of guided steps through an illustrated wizard anymore, and me regularly checking my comments threads at least thrice a day and since I uploaded my first mod having helped an impressive number of far over 50 people through installing "the requirements" for my mods (as it seems they never have any issues with my files themselves) by guiding them through step-by-step until they succeeded, of course doesn't help to the matter. I definitely should not expose the community to this immense "threat" my mods are even a single second longer anymore!

 

(@everybody else: Don't worry, nothing is going to happen. My mods will remain exactly where they are right now, until I finally get enough time to finish, a.k.a. "fix" them.)

 

Hmm, do you really think "this" is the way to go about it? "Demanding" things in "this" way from modders like me sharing their creation for nothing in return, only because there are a few bugs left we couldn't yet get around to fix? Guess what? Everybody has my utmost permission and encouragement to go ahead and fix these bugs himself, if he's so bothered by them he can't stand it any longer... or simply stop using my mods... yeah, that'd definitely be the better choice I think, for both of us. Really... for this display of entitlement shown in this post your reputation in my eyes has suffered quite a bit now... not that "my" view on anybody matters anything "to others" that is. Just disappointed I guess. :unsure:

 

And for the records, I really don't care if anybody is using my mods or not. For those who do I'm going out of my way to make it as enjoyable to them as possible, answering any and all questions they might have and helping around any issues they might encounter getting things to work. But I'll definitely not be crying after those who don't. :armscrossed:

 

Now excuse me, I have to get back to work. There's a presentation of our long-time project for one and a half years up ahead today and the big-business customer has to be pleased, so everything needs to be working at least representable in a few hours. Then, when I'm done with this, I can try to find some sleep.

Edited February 2, 2012 by DrakeTheDragon

[Nephenee13]

Drake, he wasn't talking about WIP mods and you know it. Your work is high quality, not finished, but high quality.

[DrakeTheDragon]

Drake, he wasn't talking about WIP mods and you know it. Your work is high quality, not finished, but high quality.

 

Nah, it isn't, but that's besides the point. It was this harsh demanding I was reading in the OP I was against.

 

Though I admit, now reading over it again, I can't find what I was getting so upset about anymore and it doesn't sound even remotely as bad to me anymore as it did this morning... weird. How did I get so upraged back then is beyond me, really.

 

I apologize for my words, it's looking far too aggressive for me again. Why does this always keep happening to me these days? I never wrote such posts before the whole mess started, so why now?

Hmm, my sincerest apologies to you, David. Must have hit me on a wrong spot or something. I don't know. :ermm:

 

Oh, but only 1 of the mods I listed is a WIP. The others are public already and only receive... erm, no, received regular updates and add-ons.

And if you look at it, almost all his points match my mods current state. But I was reading far more offensiveness in his post this morning than I do now.

Now it rather sounds like suggestions, points to bring up so everybody knows them and keeps them in mind. Though some passages really sound a little demanding or commanding to me still.

 

Heh, and you don't know how often I considered hiding my Anthro-Dragon Race from view already until I finally fixed the flaws most users were complaining about... from a negative point of view it has only caused me trouble since I released it... but from a positive point of view the amount of feedback I got was invaluable to me to improve necessary parts of it, even though most of them only in preparation for the next release, and I got a bunch of people really happy to play with it, although as I said it was never meant to be used in long-term play, they still do exactly that, and love it, apparently. Hmm, and now I can't see me "get a new version made" any time soon anymore anyways. :unsure:

 

Sorry again. This is not my day.

Edited February 3, 2012 by DrakeTheDragon

[lonewolfkai]

 

(3) Think about the gamers while doing the work. Think about how they will look at the mod and how they will play it. Make it in such a fashion that they won't have cause to complain.

On this particular point: sorry David, but I mod for myself, not for other gamers. I only release my stuff when people ask me to release it or if I feel someone might remotely enjoy it.

[JDFan]

You have to remember Modding is done for Free by anyone that wants to do it -- sure some modders are more professional than others and that is always going to be the case but should we as a community discourage those that are trying to learn or Constructively try to teach them how to get better at doing what they are doing -- How does a thread like this help anyone get any better at making mods ? If you want mods to get better than why not set up some type of Help thread where newer modders can submit their works for review and you can help point out the things you think are lacking and actually HELP them put out a better mod instead of bitching about how unprofessional modders work is (Remember this is not a profession it is something anyone can do for themselves or to share with others and you have no obligation to use their work -- so if you find someones work lacking either help them fix it - Fix it yourself so you can continue to use it - or JUST DON'T USE IT !

[ponyboy10]

I think a mod manager and/or creation kit with more features could help a lot, but really it comes down to the fact that this is peoples' hobby, and as far as I know, nobody's getting paid here. Also, every modder has to start somewhere. If only A+ mods got published or listed, then the barrier to entry would be too high to bother for a lot of people. It's not all that well-structured, but this is kind of how community-based development goes. Sure, some easy-to-follow guidelines on how to make mods would help, but I'm sure there are lots of tutorials out there already too. At the end of the day, this is still just a game, and these are all just fan-made unofficial modifications. Edited February 2, 2012 by ponyboy10

[ponyboy10]

As a follow-up, I can appreciate your frustration with poorly made, documented, or abandoned mods. I know I've had my share of time wasted on stuff that just won't work or non-"standard" (in as much as there is a standard) installation methods. Like I said, a mod manager that streamlined it all and could detect incompatibility would be helpful, as well as a creation kit that could [magically] do some of the validation, etc, but that's probably just a pipe-dream at this point considering again that everything here is free and it's a relatively old game already. Maybe for TES VI or VIII ;)

[Striker879]

First, I do not have a mod uploaded here or any other site. I have created mods that currently only exist on my machine, and have edited other peoples work (which also only resides only on my machine). In my opinion, my mods are trivial affairs, not worthy of upload.

 

That said, I also read an awful lot of mod comment threads here. The negative half of my personality wonders that any modder would leave their mods available for upload. How the whining masses and their constant clamor for "Can't you make this in my own personal preference for bust size/colour/location ... whatever" or "I downloaded your mod and it don't work" doesn't turn you off and make you fold up your tent and close your door simply amazes me. So many times I've seen modders who took the time to document their mod installation, gave pictures of their mod's location, fully described how to start playing their mod, included thorough steps for troubleshooting common issues with their mod and yet they are still besieged by by questions or comments covered by their mod description and/or readme. How they don't just say RTFM is beyond me, and I both applaud and envy their fortitude.

 

Are there mods that are on the opposite side of the coin ... without a doubt. My negative side's prejudices save me from downloading most of those 'other side' mods (illiterate or non-existent mod descriptions or anything with 'Ultimate', 'Awesome' or 'Improved' in the title raises flags for me ... sorry Nephenee, and just so you know, your reputation with me gave your mods a 'bye' on the title issue). The positive side of my personality gives me balance and is fed by trying to share some of the load. That endeavor leads me to some of the most unexpected gems, hidden behind poorly chosen names, given little or no description or install instructions and having almost no recognition.

 

As always, the only person standing in my way is me, and the only way to get around me is with the help of others. So I agree with David, and Drake, and Nephenee, and lonewolf, and JD and ponyboy. Consider this little gem I ran across yesterday ... "but sometimes Oblivion needs to crash" ... an absolutely delicious concept. With this frame of reference David and Drake are excused, for from within the glass it's hard to tell half full from half empty. We on the outside can give you a better idea ... from where I'm viewing it looks like it has just the right amount to quench your thirst. Also consider this. If all mods where 'A listers' some very fine mods in this world would be near the bottom of the list.

 

Frame of reference is everything.