Why the Preston Garvey hate?

[Moraelin]

Not sure how that changes anything, though. If my neighbour puts on a silly hat, then I'm still not under some obligation to let him order me around. In fact, if anything, it's all the more reason to tell him exactly where to shove it and how deep, if he just shows up and unilaterally decides to mark places on the map where I should go. If anything, it makes it MORE jarring that I can't do that, not less.

 

If he doesn't actually have any authority -- and yes, Preston doesn't -- that's all the more reason to ASK. Nicely. Electing himself to just tell someone what to do, without any authority to do so, doesn't make him more likable, it makes him a douchebag.

 

And the same goes for the other points. A neighbourhood watch group who lies to their other neighbours and actually gets them killed that way, is still more of a problem than a neighbourhood help. A neighbourhood watch group whose extreme ideology is actually more likely to put people off than get them to join, is still more of a problem than any actual help to the community. Etc.

[Fkemman11]

Again, as I pointed out it's still common and the General is nothing but a figurehead. You are a representative of the Minutemen and are suppose to show what all Minutemen are like. As the General you job is to make the Minutemen look good and by doing that is getting settlements to support you. The Minutemen are a volunteer army and what better way to show they mean business if the General themselves can actually fight and prove the Minutemen are more then just talk.

 

The General basically has no real control over the minutemen and most of the work in the group is actually done by lower ranking members like Preston or Ronnie. You just go out to settlements, look good, prove yourself to these settlers and get their support. It's the basic principle behind "Talk is cheap, actions speak loudly".

 

Sometimes though I would just like to point at something and have Cheron "Hurt it". :D

Why cant Preston be more like that?

[Gruffydd]

Not sure how that changes anything, though. If my neighbour puts on a silly hat, then I'm still not under some obligation to let him order me around. In fact, if anything, it's all the more reason to tell him exactly where to shove it and how deep, if he just shows up and unilaterally decides to mark places on the map where I should go. If anything, it makes it MORE jarring that I can't do that, not less.

 

If he doesn't actually have any authority -- and yes, Preston doesn't -- that's all the more reason to ASK. Nicely. Electing himself to just tell someone what to do, without any authority to do so, doesn't make him more likable, it makes him a douchebag.

 

And the same goes for the other points. A neighbourhood watch group who lies to their other neighbours and actually gets them killed that way, is still more of a problem than a neighbourhood help. A neighbourhood watch group whose extreme ideology is actually more likely to put people off than get them to join, is still more of a problem than any actual help to the community. Etc.

 

He doesn't just show up and start marking places on the map where you should go. First you have to hear his speech about the Minutemen, and agree to lead them. To join the neighborhood watch not just as a member, but as the person in charge. You're now leader of the Minutemen, ready to move at a minute's notice to rescue the imperiled, defend the defenseless, etc. So now, when things come up, and it's time for the Minutemen to do their thing, Preston lets you know where the problem location can be found, and it's your choice to go there in time or not. Telling him to shove it seems highly inappropriate *if you intend to continue to lead the Minutemen*.

So no, he doesn't need to ask, because he's not telling you "do this or else". There's no "or else", other than a settler dying, or your settlement getting trashed and needing repairs. He's just telling you where people are in trouble, so that you can then, should you so choose, go do the job.

Again, the issue is not so much that the quests exist, but that you as the player character are the only one apparently able to do the job.

 

And yes, you are absolutely right, when the groups were infighting, they were a danger to everyone, because they were supposed to be able to be relied on, and weren't reliable. They had lied about their commitment to the organization and the people who depended on it, and when the call came, someone told the person to shove it instead of going to do the job. Now that you as the player character are in charge, you have the opportunity to fix that, to ensure that when the call comes in, you aren't just lying about protecting people, then buggering off when you decide it's not convenient, or that you don't like the way you're getting informed that there's a problem.

 

I'm not sure what offputting "extreme ideology" you're saying they have, though. The NPCs sure appreciate it once the reformed Minutemen start doing their thing. Just listen to what they say to Preston.

[TKayFire]

 

Not sure how that changes anything, though. If my neighbour puts on a silly hat, then I'm still not under some obligation to let him order me around. In fact, if anything, it's all the more reason to tell him exactly where to shove it and how deep, if he just shows up and unilaterally decides to mark places on the map where I should go. If anything, it makes it MORE jarring that I can't do that, not less.

 

If he doesn't actually have any authority -- and yes, Preston doesn't -- that's all the more reason to ASK. Nicely. Electing himself to just tell someone what to do, without any authority to do so, doesn't make him more likable, it makes him a douchebag.

 

And the same goes for the other points. A neighbourhood watch group who lies to their other neighbours and actually gets them killed that way, is still more of a problem than a neighbourhood help. A neighbourhood watch group whose extreme ideology is actually more likely to put people off than get them to join, is still more of a problem than any actual help to the community. Etc.

 

He doesn't just show up and start marking places on the map where you should go. First you have to hear his speech about the Minutemen, and agree to lead them. To join the neighborhood watch not just as a member, but as the person in charge. You're now leader of the Minutemen, ready to move at a minute's notice to rescue the imperiled, defend the defenseless, etc. So now, when things come up, and it's time for the Minutemen to do their thing, Preston lets you know where the problem location can be found, and it's your choice to go there in time or not. Telling him to shove it seems highly inappropriate *if you intend to continue to lead the Minutemen*.

So no, he doesn't need to ask, because he's not telling you "do this or else". There's no "or else", other than a settler dying, or your settlement getting trashed and needing repairs. He's just telling you where people are in trouble, so that you can then, should you so choose, go do the job.

Again, the issue is not so much that the quests exist, but that you as the player character are the only one apparently able to do the job.

 

And yes, you are absolutely right, when the groups were infighting, they were a danger to everyone, because they were supposed to be able to be relied on, and weren't reliable. They had lied about their commitment to the organization and the people who depended on it, and when the call came, someone told the person to shove it instead of going to do the job. Now that you as the player character are in charge, you have the opportunity to fix that, to ensure that when the call comes in, you aren't just lying about protecting people, then buggering off when you decide it's not convenient, or that you don't like the way you're getting informed that there's a problem.

 

I'm not sure what offputting "extreme ideology" you're saying they have, though. The NPCs sure appreciate it once the reformed Minutemen start doing their thing. Just listen to what they say to Preston.

 

 

Hm, there's a little bit more to it than that. The problem is that when you talk to him he gives you the quest and you have no way to tell him no. Also, when you turn in one of the quests he is extremely likely to give you another one. A lot of people, including me, don't like to have a load of quests in the quest log that they aren't going to finish. If I want to join the minutemen I don't want to be bothered by any idiot that needs help. I will help when I can, not when Preston tells me this. All they had to do was create a placeholder for the available quests in his dialogue entries allowing you to CHOOSE them as you see fit. So when you talk to him you can CHOOSE to do a quest, not being forcefed them just because you're a minuteman.

[Moraelin]

He doesn't just show up and start marking places on the map where you should go. First you have to hear his speech about the Minutemen, and agree to lead them.

You know, it doesn't start being a saving grace just because you said it three times. We're not in The Hunting Of The Snark, and you're not the bellman :tongue:

 

"Just the place for a Snark!" the Bellman cried,

As he landed his crew with care;

Supporting each man on the top of the tide

By a finger entwined in his hair.

 

"Just the place for a Snark! I have said it twice:

That alone should encourage the crew.

Just the place for a Snark! I have said it thrice:

What I tell you three times is true."

The fact remains that nowhere during that speech does it say I'll never be able to say no ever again. So that saving grace boils down to 'yeah, but if you were clairvoyant, and knew he was going to just mark quests on your map ever after, you could have said no way back from the start.' And frankly, it don't impress me much. If avoiding it requires clairvoyance, then it's not my fault. Period.

 

If I went and asked someone to help search for my cat, and then kicked them in the nuts as a reward, no jury in the world would actually go, 'not guilty. The victim could have easily avoided it by just refusing to help.'

 

To join the neighborhood watch not just as a member, but as the person in charge.

Yes, but therein lies the whole rub. I was told I'd join as THE PERSON IN CHARGE, not as Preston's personal recruit to order around. Nowhere does the definition of being in charge involve the idea that ever after some underling will just tell me what to do. That's not what being in charge MEANS.

 

I don't even care if it's a military organization, or a company, or a local golf club. Being in charge doesn't mean any idiot underling can just come and tell you to go there. If I can't say "take that crap off my map/desk/golf-bag/whatever and never EVER presume to do that again without asking first", then that's the polar opposite of being in charge.

 

If you can't even tell people to show some basic human courtesy to you, nor really even just to show more respect than Rodney Dangerfield got, then no, you're not really in charge. You may have a piece of paper or a funny title that say you should be in charge, but you're not really.

 

You're now leader of the Minutemen, ready to move at a minute's notice to rescue the imperiled, defend the defenseless, etc.

You know, kindly stop presuming to tell me that, verily, there is only one way to role-play my character. I'll be ready at a minute's notice if _I_ want to be, not if Preston thinks that I should be. If I want to be the worst leader ever in recorded history, worse than if you mixed Benedict Arnold's treason with Melchett's incompetence and Haig's disregard for soldier lives in WW, then that's my choice to make.

 

Honestly, even actual NPCs from the game were never THAT devoid of all personality. There would have been a lot more people at Quincy if just being a Minuteman actually meant turning into a zombie with no free will, and having no choice but to be ready at a minute's notice. So I fail to see why it would seem to anyone that the only way to play one is to actually be more unidimensional than an _NPC_.

 

So now, when things come up, and it's time for the Minutemen to do their thing, Preston lets you know where the problem location can be found

If I'm the leader, then the time is when _I_ say it's time, not when Preston says it's time.

 

and it's your choice to go there in time or not.

... except for the fact that it blocks other quests. Essentially Preston did decide that I can't do, say, County Crossing, because he filled my 3 MM radiant slots with, say, Graygarden, Finch and Warwich. Even if I never actually went and talked to any of those, or hell, even if I never even had any of those 3 quests actually selected in the log, I still can't take a 4'th from a settlement i actually want. So, no, I'm not really in charge if I can't even do the stuff I want until I please Preston by doing _his_ crap.

 

Telling him to shove it seems highly inappropriate *if you intend to continue to lead the Minutemen*.

Nowhere did I say that I only play apropriate characters. It may come as a surprise :wink: but some are actually scum, douchebags, a-holes and other such assorted trades.

 

One of them even shot some Far Harbour settlers in the head for just showing up without asking on a farm, and then being unhappy at _me_ because their needs weren't met. I think you'll agree that by comparison telling Preston where to shove it is actually fairly tame. Still inapropriate, mind you, but by far not the worst way to be inapropriate I can think of :wink:

 

And if you think I'm exaggerating, I can think of sacrificing them to allfather Odin. And that's STILL not the most inapropriate thing I can think of. It's not even the most inapropriate I wish I could do :tongue:

 

So no, he doesn't need to ask, because he's not telling you "do this or else". There's no "or else", other than a settler dying, or your settlement getting trashed and needing repairs. He's just telling you where people are in trouble, so that you can then, should you so choose, go do the job.

I don't know... aaround here it's still considered polite to ask and say please, even if you don't escalate directly to "or else." Even if don't escalate to "or else", I still wouldn't make many friends if I just went to my boss and went, "go downstairs and see if the package from Amazon is here yet." In fact, I don't think he'd have to justify himself if he thought I'm an annoying twit after that happened more than once. So I fail to see how Preston just telling me to hoof it diagonally across the state to see if Warwick needs any help is something that is in more need of justification if I find him to be an annoying twit for it.

 

Normal people tend to open with "Could you" and/or end with "please." Is all I'm saying.

 

Sure, they COULD be even worse human beings by going "or else" instead of "please". But just not being THE worst human being ever is still hardly something positive.

 

Again, the issue is not so much that the quests exist, but that you as the player character are the only one apparently able to do the job.

Well, I will grant that it would be even better if I could send Preston (or whoever) to do it without me. Obviously. But that's not my main problem. My main problem is just that he doesn't ask first. Quite literally.

 

And yes, you are absolutely right, when the groups were infighting, they were a danger to everyone, because they were supposed to be able to be relied on, and weren't reliable. They had lied about their commitment to the organization and the people who depended on it, and when the call came, someone told the person to shove it instead of going to do the job. Now that you as the player character are in charge, you have the opportunity to fix that, to ensure that when the call comes in, you aren't just lying about protecting people, then buggering off when you decide it's not convenient, or that you don't like the way you're getting informed that there's a problem.

That's not what i'm saying at all. Far from agreeing with that black and white point of view, where there aren't any shades in between (1) you're completely altruistic, a saint even, and more than happy to die pointlessly in an untenable position, or (2) are a traitor and a failure, I'm saying that that kind of attituted is the PROBLEM.

 

Maybe you're that kind of a selfless saint, but most people aren't. If the only choices are to be nothing short of perfection, or you're a traitor and a failure, it won't motivate many people to even try. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the rise of such unrealistic expectations were why the Minutemen fell apart in the first place.

[Gruffydd]

Since you've decided to devolve into straw man arguments and personal comments, I'm done with this discussion.

[Moraelin]

Really? Could you please point out exactly what was the strawman there? It seems to me like I answered to exactly what I quoted.