How do you rate the success of your mods ?

[Greslin]

I don't really want to drag this thread off topic either, but I do think the Console Question is probably a legitimate factor for many of us in this "mod success metric" debate.

 

There will never be a "console Creation Kit", because that defeats the whole purpose of going console. At that point, you have a Sony-branded PC in a slim case. I've done the console thing - did it for years - and really, the whole selling value there is knowing (at least usually) that whatever you load up is what you're going to get. You're there for that technological standardization, that brand predictability. Good or bad. If it sucks, it sucks for everybody. PC gaming can be a chaotic grab bag in comparison, where if it sucks, it may just suck for you and your two-year-old video card.

 

When I think of even attempting to port to console, I find myself shifting into a very different mindset than I would coding for PC modders. At heart, what I really want is for you to write some cool stuff yourselves. I learned from great modders, I want to pass that on, because I'm selfish and dammit, I want the stuff that I know you can do. Yeah, I realize that 99% of the people who download my mods will never boot CK or compile a Papyrus script, and that's fine. They can enjoy the heat coming off the engine, but that's just a byproduct. Modders coding for modders is the engine itself.

 

Console, on the other hand, is a straight consumer relationship. None of those guys are going to get into their own code hacking unless they go PC themselves. So the entire dynamic shifts from one of sympathetic community to one of what we can or should do for them. What they want from us. It is an ENTIRELY different way of looking at that success metric question.

 

The paid mod fiasco was just an end symptom of that. Without that robust code feedback loop, we're all just Bethesda franchisees, helping build essentially DLCs and waiting for them to figure out how we should be "fairly compensated". Screw that. My compensation is the code, not the cash or endorsements or whatever.

 

I think at the root that's why I have no interest in doing any console ports. I've seen too much console entitlement, too little community giveback.

[chucksteel]

@Greslin,

 

I know of at least 50 console players who have went out and picked up a PC copy of Fallout 4 and or Skyrim just to try their hand at modding. For some of these people this is their first real exposer to mods and modding of games.

 

You need to spend some time talking with some of them they are not all bad and there are as many good ones as on PC. Same for the bad ones! We as modders have all experienced the bad users on PC!!!!

[llamaRCA]

@Greslin,

 

I know of at least 50 console players who have went out and picked up a PC copy of Fallout 4 and or Skyrim just to try their hand at modding. For some of these people this is their first real exposer to mods and modding of games.

 

You need to spend some time talking with some of them they are not all bad and there are as many good ones as on PC. Same for the bad ones! We as modders have all experienced the bad users on PC!!!!

 

I'm a console player that moved to the PC to play FO3 so I could use mods. Took me less than a month to get into the Geck and I've never looked back. I still play a lot of games on console. Mostly play Beth games on the PC because I enjoy creating content for them so much.

[chucksteel]

 

@Greslin,

 

I know of at least 50 console players who have went out and picked up a PC copy of Fallout 4 and or Skyrim just to try their hand at modding. For some of these people this is their first real exposer to mods and modding of games.

 

You need to spend some time talking with some of them they are not all bad and there are as many good ones as on PC. Same for the bad ones! We as modders have all experienced the bad users on PC!!!!

 

I'm a console player that moved to the PC to play FO3 so I could use mods. Took me less than a month to get into the Geck and I've never looked back. I still play a lot of games on console. Mostly play Beth games on the PC because I enjoy creating content for them so much.

 

 

Same here! was a PS person and a Mac guy that had to install windows on a bootcamp partition to play FO3 with mods. :laugh:

 

Edit: So for all just know D.C. Interiors, N.V. Interiors, Beantown Interiors and Much of A Tale of Two Wastelands were, "Made on a MAC!" :devil:

[Gruffydd]

I played and adored Morrowind on my Xbox. Eventually I got a PC version (once I built a decent PC), but found the interface clunky for building my own stuff. I didn't yet know about NexusMods, so I didn't have that support network of being able to ask "how do I do X" or "where can I find a decent tutorial on X". I got into mods with Oblivion as a player, but never made any. My work is using computers constantly, and making mods then seemed too much like work, but I was more than happy to use mods. When Skyrim came out, I built a whole new computer ​just to be able to play Skyrim with mods. It wasn't until I got Fallout 4, and wasn't happy with the vanilla assortment of signs, that I started making mods.

So really, I was a console player for Beth games before I was a PC player. However, before that, I coded a MUD for about 5 years on the PC and Mac, adding tons of new functionality like a completely reworked combat system, things that took some really intense coding. So, I was a coder before I was a Beth console player. And before that, I played a lot of Sega console games. And before that, I was adding code to Telengard on my Atari 800 computer (oh no, out of memory... quick, go through and replace every instance of "print" with a question mark to save the four bytes per... yay, more memory). And before that, I was playing cartridge games on my 800, which was basically console gaming.

My point being that sometimes, for some people, the only difference between a console gamer and a PC gamer is timing and availability of technology, rather than any specific attitude or outlook.

 

That said, the difference between console gamers and PC gamers ​for Fallout 4 on Bethesda.net now​ was pretty marked for me. I released my signs and posters mod for the Xbox on Bethesda.net as soon as they allowed us to do so. I wanted to support modding for everyone. Then the size cap slapped me in the face, and then some console gamers (not all, not even a majority - most were nice) started blaming me for the size cap, and demanding that I reduce the size of my mod and got really rude when I told them why I wouldn't/couldn't. I don't get that on Nexus (for obvious reasons - size cap is exclusive to consoles, so people being jerky about it was console-exclusive), so it really made trying to support the mod for consoles frustrating. That's why I stopped doing the console version of my mod, because it just wasn't fun. I make my mod to relax, and do something different from what I do at work (complicated Excel spreadsheets and Crystal Reports queries, mostly), so as soon as making my mod available for consoles became not fun, that was it for me. I didn't take it down, but I'm not updating it anymore, and I'm not supporting it. I haven't even been there in months.

 

Which brings me around to the actual subject of this thread. How do I judge the success of my mod? In one way, it was a success from the get-go, because it makes my settlements look better in my game. The fact that other people like it too is a nice bonus.

Do I consider the mod a successful console mod? No. Not because of the virtues or flaws of the mod, and not because of console users (or at least not directly), but because of the limitations on the craft placed on it by the structural requirements of console modding (especially that damned size cap). My vanilla sign mod was successful for the console, because it didn't add new textures and therefore didn't significantly impact the size cap, but my custom sign mod just didn't work well in a console environment. Too many new textures.

Aside from my personal use, do I consider it a successful mod overall? Yes, because enough people have left really nice comments that I know it's making a difference in how much some other people are enjoying playing their games. Forget endorsements. Anyone who puts big enough guns or big enough boobs in their mods can get endorsements. Instead, read the comments. If your mod is really reaching people, some of them will let you know, and that will make all the difference.

[chucksteel]

I'm having the exact opposite experiance with console mod users. Most (but not all) are just happy I'm releasing and supporting them. On the other hand I have the PC users on the nexus who try to run 256 mods (Yes I know thats over the cap) along with an ENB, 10K texture packs, with .ini tweaks pushing settings well over ultra then ranting that my mod BROKE THERE GAME because they get a FPS hit from 60 to 50 or whatever!!!

 

Sure I know my mod is a bit of a system hog! I get that and had FO4 been designed differently I could fix it but, I can't without cutting out console support and making the mod incompatible with many other mods.

 

Part of me wants to just drop PC support at this point! I won't because there are a lot of good people here too but with the restrictions many of the console players understand they have limitations and don't expect perfection because they chose to drop $5000 on a PC.

[Greslin]

I'm having the exact opposite experiance with console mod users. Most (but not all) are just happy I'm releasing and supporting them. On the other hand I have the PC users on the nexus who try to run 256 mods (Yes I know thats over the cap) along with an ENB, 10K texture packs, with .ini tweaks pushing settings well over ultra then ranting that my mod BROKE THERE GAME because they get a FPS hit from 60 to 50 or whatever!!!

 

Sure I know my mod is a bit of a system hog! I get that and had FO4 been designed differently I could fix it but, I can't without cutting out console support and making the mod incompatible with many other mods.

 

Part of me wants to just drop PC support at this point! I won't because there are a lot of good people here too but with the restrictions many of the console players understand they have limitations and don't expect perfection because they chose to drop $5000 on a PC.

 

Dude, I understand that. I love your stuff, and going back to FO3 your Interiors projects (not to mention your TTW work) have always been among my first downloads for a new install. And you have a decent point about consoles being essentially a gateway drug for PC. I mean, that's how I got into this as well, introduced to the series for the first time playing FO3 ten years ago on PS3.

 

I'm just saying that the success metric changes a bit. I'm already finding myself somewhat irritated at technical design decisions that Bethesda made, apparently to better support consoles: AddItem() and RemoveItem() limited to 16-bit integer counts, elimination of the InventoryWeight AV, etc. My natural instinct there is to do workarounds and subvert Bethesda's intent.. which would be a much tighter straitjacket if I cared about consoles.

 

(I also still have the taste of bitter ashes in my mouth from experiencing the infusion of PS3 DUST players into Eve Online a few years ago. But that's a completely different story for another day.)

 

It all depends on the kinds of mods you do, I guess. Like I said, I wholeheartedly agree with you on gamer equality. There's a place in the ecosystem for everyone, and without mods like yours, fewer people would be taking the chance on mods like mine.

[chucksteel]

I do hope I'm not coming off as confrontational! That's not my intent!

 

I also agree with you on the points about Bethesda and other game companies dumbing down games to draw in the casual players! It's bad and if it keeps up the next fallout or elders scrolls will likely be a version of "Angry Birds" with swords or guns.

 

I just see a lot of hate for console players, some people just assume they are all idiots when we have equal amounts of idiots playing on PC. :unsure:

[Gruffydd]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to say in a roundabout way. From what I see, when you boil it down, there's not as much difference between a console player and a PC player. Often the differences are caused by the technical aspects or limitations of the platform (ex: on mine it was the console size cap) and players' responses to that, rather than anything inherent to the players themselves.

[Greslin]

I do hope I'm not coming off as confrontational! That's not my intent!

 

Nah. We're all cool here.

 

I also agree with you on the points about Bethesda and other game companies dumbing down games to draw in the casual players! It's bad and if it keeps up the next fallout or elders scrolls will likely be a version of "Angry Birds" with swords or guns.

.. cough cough ..

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

I just see a lot of hate for console players, some people just assume they are all idiots when we have equal amounts of idiots playing on PC. :unsure:

Certainly can't argue with you there. And that's not really where I come from at all. Yeah, there's a part of me that can't help but equate it to the AOL invasion of USENET back in the late 90s (and yes, that dates me). But I don't see it as a comparative intelligence thing. If anything, I think the major distinction between the groups is that PC users tend to have a bit more patience for what console players would call boring tedium. But I imagine console players think the same about mobile gamers.