Religion

[Peregrine]

But only when this religion is misunderstood.

 

It takes no misunderstanding. "God"'s position on unbelievers is clear. From your own bible:

 

But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

 

Translation: If they aren't us, destroy them. Your own bible orders you to attack anyone who doesn't believe in the right imaginary god. That's not misunderstanding, like it or not, your religion contains these ideas.

 

 

And to show you that not only religion can inspire evil acts: Look at the NSDAP of Hitler. They used Darwin and Haeckel as excuses for their actions.

 

A very flawed interpertation of them perhaps. And only as an excuse for what they wanted to do anyway. If those hadn't existed, Hitler would have simply found a different excuse. Which is completely different from religion. Religious motivation for evil acts is clear. They aren't simply using the book as justification for their actions, they believe that their God wants them to do it.

 

They thought that the "*censored* race" was just more advanced than the other races (like jews) and therefore it was the right of the more advanced race to kill the less advanced races and to take their place. Surviving of the stronger.

 

Concession accepted. Jewishness is a religious description, not a racial one. Take away the imaginary gods and the differences disappear, as well as the motivation to kill them. Religion is a clear problem in this case!

 

I cannot support such an ideology.

 

Then you're blind. It happens constantly in our world. "Stronger" people succeed more than others. The only difference is there isn't death for the "weaker" ones.

 

Of course it is clear to everyone that Hitler abused Darwin's theory there for his own purposes. The same is the case, when you read in the New Testament "Love your enemies" and then go and kill people because of their different belief (crusades, inquisition, conquista etc. etc.)

 

WRONG. Do you even read your own bible? God's evilness is clear to anyone who does. There are many descriptions of God's punishment of anyone who didn't believe in him. The punishment of unbeleivers is a fundamental concept of your religion!

 

Communism is a deadly good example: its theories describe love and end of abusing people by other people... and reality is: millions of victims and lands devastated. In the name of better tomorrow.

 

Because Communism is a flawed and impossibly idealistic concept. I don't know what you're trying to argue here, because I consider it a bad invention as well.

 

See... it`s hard to believe but Inquisition believed it`s better for people to burn them - therefore they could not be damned as heretics. So, from THAT point of view, they were in fact helping them.

 

Whose side are you on? Are you trying to prove me right? The Inquisition was motivated by religion. Take away the imaginary god and it doesn't happen. Whether they are honest believers or not, or whether they represent the "real" religion, it was their motivation.

[loveme4whoiam]

Um, i can't really contribute to this, whats the word i want? Debate? Flame-war? Exchange of views by a group of very passionate people? Yeah, i guess that will do. But to return to hundinman's idea that there should be a one-post per member policy, i'll add myself them retreat hurriedly to get out of the firing line.

 

I voted Athiest, which i'm not going to try to define, since that seems what is already happening. i'm one of those really fervent athiests, the sort that Terry Pratchett talks about in Small Gods (great book BTW) whose commitment to being a non-believer is almost a sort of belief in itself.

 

I can accept people can believe in a "higher power", "god", whatever, to try and justify why life sucks so damn much, just as long as they respect that i ain't going to convert (this is a note to all Jehovahs [bad sp] Witness's in my area).

 

Just to introduce another point of complete controversy, i'd like to point out that, from a historical standpoint, religion has caused more deaths than possibly all diseases and other natural phenomena put together. Just had to point that out :D

[Darnoc]

The only reason why more people were killed through religion than through ideologies (e.g. communism, fascism) is because religions existed longer than those ideologies. Give those ideologies some thousand years and about the same amount of people will be killed. Perhaps even more, then today we have far more advanced ways of killing people. Fact is that every belief in the world can inspire evil acts. So, shall we believe in nothing, Peregrin? This is just not possible, you can't belief in nothing. You can belief that something doesn't exist but this is still a belief. And when every belief inspires evil acts, what believe is then the one we should take? I think the problem lies not in the beliefs themselves but in the people interpreting them so they can have an excuse for their actions.

 

You said Peregrin that Hitler could have taken any other belief. You are correct. But the fact that he didn't shows to me that no belief (not even your belief, Peregrin) is save from abuse. So in the end every belief is the same bad.

 

You quoted a passage from the bible, Peregrin. I am aware of those passages where god orders people to be killed. What you aren't aware of is why this happened. Let's assume that god really exists and that he is the only god (as it says in the bible). If this true, doesn't he have a right to be angry at anyone who worships something different than him? He says that he is holy and just. There is nothing just or holy about sacrificing innocent children to some blood thirsty god. Now if I was god and someone sacrificed a child, that I have created, to a piece of stone, I would be angry too. And sacrificing children was what the Canaanites did (and later on the Israelites)

 

Still assuming that god exists and that he is angry because someone doesn't pay him the respect he deserves, why then does god wait about fourhundred years until he punishes the wrong-doers? (About fourhundred years passed between where god promised Abraham the land of Canaan and until it was conquered by the Israelites). Is it because he wants to give those Canaanites a chance?

 

You wanted to show me that god is merciless by quoting a passage from the old testament. Let me show you the oppisite (I'm directly translating from my German bible)

 

And in the fourth generation they will return here, then the measure of the guilt of the Amorites isn't full yet

 

This you can read in Genesis chapter 15, verse 16. It is a passage where god talks to Abraham. He tells Abraham that his descendants will be slaves and servants in a foreign country for fourhundred years, then they will return. And as you can see in this verse, he does this because he wants to give the Amorites (another word for Canaanites) a chance to turn away from their evil ways. A fourhundred grace period! God even condemns his own people (the Hebrews) to slavery so that the Canaanites have a chance! Isn't this mercy? Yes, god orders the Hebrews to kill the Canaanites, but only after he has given the Canaanites a chance to turn around and after he sacrificed his own people, condemned them to fourhundred years of slavery.

 

And this was only the old testament. In which religion you can find that god himselfs steps down and is killed by humans, in order to save every human being? I don't know anything similar as merciful anywhere. One man sacrifices his life in order to save billions. You don't have to believe in it, Peregrin, but you can't deny that giving ones life in order to save the life of someone you love is the highest way of showing love to someone else and is pure mercy.

 

Yes, a lot of people are killed by the command of god in the bible. But never without giving them a chance. Sometimes hard measures have to be taken in order to fight evil in our world. Innocent (or perhaps not so innocent people) will always die and suffer, but in the end the majority will be safed. God could have just said "These humans are all evil, I just kill them and get rid of the problem". But he didn't. He sacrificed himself to save us.

 

And don't forget: Also in LotR a lot of (sometimes) innocent people have to die in order to save the world. When you can see the point in what Tolkien has written, it shouldn't be a problem to see what is meant in the bible. In fact there are many paralells between the work of Tolkien and the bible. Probably because he was a Catholic.

 

Of course you don't have to believe what is written in the bible and I don't want to convince you that you do, Peregrin. But least accept the fact that what is written in the bible isn't merciless. And please, state the next time when you quote the bible, where from the bible you have it (the bible is a huge book). You can easily rip anything out of a book and proof anything with this passage. But in order to truly understand the meaning of a passage you have to see it in the context. It is just easier for me to find it, when you state where you have it from :D

[Peregrine]

So, shall we believe in nothing, Peregrin? This is just not possible, you can't belief in nothing.

 

Yes you can. I do it just fine. I believe in nothing more than the world as we see it.

 

And when every belief inspires evil acts, what believe is then the one we should take?

 

Wrong. Not every belief inspires evil. Show me a list of evil that has been committed because of a belief in atheism (not using it as justification, but where it was the actual motivation). Then compare it to the same list for Christianity. There's a clear difference. Some beliefs inspire far more evil than others, and religion is one of them.

 

You said Peregrin that Hitler could have taken any other belief. You are correct. But the fact that he didn't shows to me that no belief (not even your belief, Peregrin) is save from abuse. So in the end every belief is the same bad.

 

Wrong. Hitler did what he did because he wanted power, and because he believed in the idea of a superior race. I don't see your point with this argument, I never said Hitler's beliefs were good ones. The fact that religion is not the only evil doesn't make it any less evil.

 

You quoted a passage from the bible, Peregrin. I am aware of those passages where god orders people to be killed. What you aren't aware of is why this happened. Let's assume that god really exists and that he is the only god (as it says in the bible). If this true, doesn't he have a right to be angry at anyone who worships something different than him? He says that he is holy and just. There is nothing just or holy about sacrificing innocent children to some blood thirsty god. Now if I was god and someone sacrificed a child, that I have created, to a piece of stone, I would be angry too. And sacrificing children was what the Canaanites did (and later on the Israelites)

 

Irrelevant. The argument is whether religion is a good thing or a bad thing, not whether "God" is justified in his actions. And statements like that quote show that Christianity includes concepts that can only be considered evil.

 

Even if every single word you say about this is true, it still has nothing to do with the topic. What matters is the result of religion, which in this case is evil.

 

You can easily rip anything out of a book and proof anything with this passage. But in order to truly understand the meaning of a passage you have to see it in the context.

 

Context is irrelevant in this case. The bible states that unbelievers should be punished, and Christianity does exactly that. Religion motivates evil.

[loveme4whoiam]

Ahem. Not to get embroiled in this ongoing feud you two have going on, but i'd like to point out that:

 

The only reason why more people were killed through religion than through ideologies (e.g. communism, fascism) is because religions existed longer than those ideologies. Give those ideologies some thousand years and about the same amount of people will be killed.

 

I sited natural disasters as killing less people than religion, and i'm prepared to back it up with at least 15 seperate wars (not including the Crusades, which count as one each) to prove this. If you are going to attack a fact, please at least attack the right one.

 

And to actually look at your point, then yes, i'd agree that ideologies have killed far too many people, but these have mostly been caused by a single person or group of people; ie Stalin, Ceacescu (i've been studying Communism for two years, and i still can't remember how to spell the buggers name). Hitler was different, slightly, since he was attacking religion, which in my book is almost as bad as killing for religion.

 

Anyway, i'll let you two get back to it.

[Dr. Corbett]

That's it. As a flame war, I am officially locking this thread and putting out a warning that, if any threads like this start again and deteriorate into a flame war, I will be far less friendly in my moderatorial actions. Although I hate to be impinging on your freedom of speech like this, I'm afraid that this has turned into a small bit of a flame war so I am, by my position, compelled to lock this.

 

Again, my apologies. Complaints may be messaged to me.