NavMesh alternative based on Morrowind

[JakubDaviau]

Hello! I have a strange mod idea and im not sure how to explain it, but ill try to do my best.

 

Morrowind is third game in The Elder Scrolls games made by Bethesda, same as Fallout 4.

 

Some years back (the game is rather old at this point) i used to mod that game, i made custom player house and a dungeon.

 

Navmesh in morrowind worked a bit different than in other Bethesda games. navmesh was this overlay of paths and diamond-shaped markers, basically you would put this diamond shaped marker down, lets say at the top of the stairs you made, and another one at the bottom of the stairs, and then you would link them, that would form a rectangular stripe connecting the two, and NPCs in the game would use that as a path to get where they wanted to go (it was not visible in the game only in creation kit used for modding).

I thought that perhaps it could be possible to make something that would work similar to this as a mod for fallout, where it would be available in settlement building mode.

I figured that powerlines work in a slightly similar way, as in you place those pylons and such and connect them with wire, so maybe it would be possible to make something that works similar but instead of wire it stretches this basic shape between two diamond-shaped nodes that settlers can use as a path.

This would make settlement building much easier with mods, i have often problems with settlers getting around the settlement because various pieces from mods might not have working navmesh or settlers get otherwise confused in some way.

Im not sure if this is possible or how hard it would be to make, but if possible it would allow to "draw" routs around settlement do the settlers would never get confused or tried to get to your glass house through a wall or couldn't work out stairs leading to shop or something like that.

 

Edit: Alternatively maybe there could be mod that would allow settlers to just teleport to objects/places that they want to go to or use so at least they could get there

Edited May 31, 2017 by JakubDaviau

[montky]

@JD

It IS YOU! great to see you're starting to make even more FO4 stuff! nice!

indeed, I recall that mod, and enjoyed the heck out of (and still do) TES3:Morrow-wind.

I am VERY INTRIGUED about your idea and potential mods based on this idea,

as I am sure that SMB92 and "War of the Commonwealth v3" will also be intrigued...

 

forgive my enthusiasm, but this is phluppin' good news!

 

we can already make a workaround, thanks to "any door to anywhere"

they're placeable pairs of entry and exit door-portals, (think Portal style)

replete with 'grab screenshot" ones that can show the interior of the exit portal.

Doorportals, which are previz'd, allow us to "old school" connect two or more places.

I use this to connect Red Rocket Spa and Resort North Concord, to the "Under Sanctuary", and on to "Greater V111"...

 

others also use door-portals in Beantown Interiors, and in The Enclave Returns,

and in The Underboston.

Ref swap pads are also a possibility - they delete the instance at the enter pad, and spawn in an identical instance at the exit pad.

Beware using this method long-term though, as it will eventually likely lead to save-game/hashing string degradation.

 

Power is entirely different;

"better accurate settlement XML" mod gets the true value from each settlement, and stores it in a "table of fail"

rather than in an array which can't handle 3 or more digits...

that way, the power-share object (I believe the object is one of those "relay tower" things with a dish)

is just getting the power from that "table of fail" across all settlements that have a tie-in to that.

this includes from "para-settlements, settlements which were made via place anywhere etc".

it'll let you put that in the upcoming Pipboy menu overhaul tab as "Settlements - Other".

 

 

 

you're right about morrowind -

it was "2D-3D" and used geometry for the navmesh routine, which is a lot more efficient than some other methods and frameworks, when you think about the n^X! worth of combos that a user could make per settlement. just slice each cell by the set building block height, and form a geometry map per level per settlement... only when 'significant change in the hashingstring' is made.

the player is also a pathing source per node -

if the player can path, then the NPC's will path to it.

 

if objects are not properly encoded in the U4/Creation particular way,

then their metadata will not be precombined as discussed in this most excellent resource thread here:

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/5522717-fallout-4-optimization-and-performance-systems-explained/

thus, the NPC's won't know what to do...

 

take for example, a hypothetical "holographic entry way" -

when the 'hologram' is on, the object is solid, and NPC's won't try to walk through it.

but, when the hologram is off, the object collision is off, and NPC's will be able to path through it...

(they'll take the path of least resistance, sometimes betraying the secret holographic side entrance, and ruining a secret quest...)

The solution? NPC's cannot path to it if it is 'improperly encoded",

so deliberately improperly encode the holographic entrance ways you want to be properly secret,

then, replace them later with "Any Door to Any Where"... with a 'clear" door.

 

or, a forcefield:

if I don't encode the object properly, the NPCs will try to walk through the forcefield until they die...

the solution? have the Thomson's Light Switch have a different timer before the status is toggled to "clear/no collision"...

so, they won't walk into it if you have the forcefield on a "The Phantom Menace" timer schedule...

 

-----

we now have AGIXML routines, that can "draw" the pathing pseudo-randomly,

MCMC and random vectors, or, analyze based on colors reference points on the "top down 2D geometry map".

I am looking into how that 2D system could be used to get geometry, but surely there's already that geometric data in some mega Aleph^2 array in Creation... I suspect that's probably a call and command set that is not yet known...

 

this will be vital for the NPC overhaul,

and ambient quest "bounty board" project,

not to mention, the AGI Games Master project - imagine being able to have an FORPG game experience,

and have persistent quest givers etc....

 

 

 

Thanks for reading!

 

and, for whovian fans who liked FONV:Who-Vegas

(Rove McManus playing FONV:Who-Vegas was awesome!)

read on.

 

 

 

what if I told you that, with the help of BlahBlahDEEBlahBlah...

it could be possible to have a collab teamup...

it could be possible to make a 1:1 "flyable tardis" mod?

if we can have a rideable "Giddyup Buttercup Bronco", we can have a cheshire blue box.

 

previz into the dashboard control-room would allow you to have that previz-door as a face of the tardis...

the true interior of the tardis is a "new lands mod".. the box toggles as a doorway between the commonwealth and the new lands...

the tardis is a flyable vehicle until you 'park it'.

If you don't put the handbreak on, a timer begins... and the Tardis will return to Diamond City...

 

we can even make the hologram message system.

Thanks to JetSteel, we can even at any time teleport to the T-Dis via "Transmat beam"...

We would of course need a navmesh mod to make companions and what not actually use the Tardis,

and, I find the notion of a "settlement in the Tardis" to be hilarious...

 

 

 

[JakubDaviau]

@JD

It IS YOU! great to see you're starting to make even more FO4 stuff! nice!

indeed, I recall that mod, and enjoyed the heck out of (and still do) TES3:Morrow-wind.

I am VERY INTRIGUED about your idea and potential mods based on this idea,

as I am sure that SMB92 and "War of the Commonwealth v3" will also be intrigued...

 

forgive my enthusiasm, but this is phluppin' good news!

 

we can already make a workaround, thanks to "any door to anywhere"

they're placeable pairs of entry and exit door-portals, (think Portal style)

replete with 'grab screenshot" ones that can show the interior of the exit portal.

Doorportals, which are previz'd, allow us to "old school" connect two or more places.

I use this to connect Red Rocket Spa and Resort North Concord, to the "Under Sanctuary", and on to "Greater V111"...

 

others also use door-portals in Beantown Interiors, and in The Enclave Returns,

and in The Underboston.

Ref swap pads are also a possibility - they delete the instance at the enter pad, and spawn in an identical instance at the exit pad.

Beware using this method long-term though, as it will eventually likely lead to save-game/hashing string degradation.

 

Power is entirely different;

"better accurate settlement XML" mod gets the true value from each settlement, and stores it in a "table of fail"

rather than in an array which can't handle 3 or more digits...

that way, the power-share object (I believe the object is one of those "relay tower" things with a dish)

is just getting the power from that "table of fail" across all settlements that have a tie-in to that.

this includes from "para-settlements, settlements which were made via place anywhere etc".

it'll let you put that in the upcoming Pipboy menu overhaul tab as "Settlements - Other".

 

 

 

you're right about morrowind -

it was "2D-3D" and used geometry for the navmesh routine, which is a lot more efficient than some other methods and frameworks, when you think about the n^X! worth of combos that a user could make per settlement. just slice each cell by the set building block height, and form a geometry map per level per settlement... only when 'significant change in the hashingstring' is made.

the player is also a pathing source per node -

if the player can path, then the NPC's will path to it.

 

if objects are not properly encoded in the U4/Creation particular way,

then their metadata will not be precombined as discussed in this most excellent resource thread here:

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/5522717-fallout-4-optimization-and-performance-systems-explained/

thus, the NPC's won't know what to do...

 

take for example, a hypothetical "holographic entry way" -

when the 'hologram' is on, the object is solid, and NPC's won't try to walk through it.

but, when the hologram is off, the object collision is off, and NPC's will be able to path through it...

(they'll take the path of least resistance, sometimes betraying the secret holographic side entrance, and ruining a secret quest...)

The solution? NPC's cannot path to it if it is 'improperly encoded",

so deliberately improperly encode the holographic entrance ways you want to be properly secret,

then, replace them later with "Any Door to Any Where"... with a 'clear" door.

 

or, a forcefield:

if I don't encode the object properly, the NPCs will try to walk through the forcefield until they die...

the solution? have the Thomson's Light Switch have a different timer before the status is toggled to "clear/no collision"...

so, they won't walk into it if you have the forcefield on a "The Phantom Menace" timer schedule...

 

-----

we now have AGIXML routines, that can "draw" the pathing pseudo-randomly,

MCMC and random vectors, or, analyze based on colors reference points on the "top down 2D geometry map".

I am looking into how that 2D system could be used to get geometry, but surely there's already that geometric data in some mega Aleph^2 array in Creation... I suspect that's probably a call and command set that is not yet known...

 

this will be vital for the NPC overhaul,

and ambient quest "bounty board" project,

not to mention, the AGI Games Master project - imagine being able to have an FORPG game experience,

and have persistent quest givers etc....

 

 

 

Thanks for reading!

 

and, for whovian fans who liked FONV:Who-Vegas

(Rove McManus playing FONV:Who-Vegas was awesome!)

read on.

 

 

 

what if I told you that, with the help of BlahBlahDEEBlahBlah...

it could be possible to have a collab teamup...

it could be possible to make a 1:1 "flyable tardis" mod?

if we can have a rideable "Giddyup Buttercup Bronco", we can have a cheshire blue box.

 

previz into the dashboard control-room would allow you to have that previz-door as a face of the tardis...

the true interior of the tardis is a "new lands mod".. the box toggles as a doorway between the commonwealth and the new lands...

the tardis is a flyable vehicle until you 'park it'.

If you don't put the handbreak on, a timer begins... and the Tardis will return to Diamond City...

 

we can even make the hologram message system.

Thanks to JetSteel, we can even at any time teleport to the T-Dis via "Transmat beam"...

We would have course need a navmesh mod to make companions and what not actually use the Tardis,

and, I find the notion of a "settlement in the Tardis" to be hilarious...

 

 

 

 

Hey there Montky, im not exactly making new stuff really, that's why i wrote this topic as a suggestion if someone else could do it, i have no idea how to make such thing myself, i can do some simple modding but nothing like this.

You mentioned mod that adds sets of linked doors that settlers could use? I tried to google for "any door to anywhere" but i haven't found any such mod, but it does sound useful, i could use it to make getting around the settlement easier, can you link this mod?

Edited June 1, 2017 by JakubDaviau

[montky]

if it's no longer listed, the originators probably are sharing it other ways or taking it back to beta hehe.

there's not much I can do about that, if thats how they wish to proceed.

 

 

 

I can only hope they'll re-release it, or other modders will also develop a similar approach, as a community asset or standalone.

(something about a lot of folks not reading the 3 dot point read-me;

1. do not link cells that are more than x,y,z apart, 2. do not hyperdefine an anywhere doorportal door ref; use a clone preserve the original.

3. do not 'layer-ception" anydoor to anywhere more than 2 or 3 door nestings deep... see "lossless compression, hashingstring 'bloat" and degradation...)

 

though, I can point you in the direction of the threads they may have used in the forming of said mod;

https://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/5522717-fallout-4-optimization-and-performance-systems-explained/

and the associated wiki on capturing floatingpoint from a door, and pathing via a door portal.

 

JetSteel's teleport project is also door-portal related, so is well worth a squiz.

 

 

-----

EDIT: Petard recently featured a mod

NMM RefID #24 180 by ballisticarmadillo

There are several interesting 'doorportal' entrances in that approach also.

this kind of door-portal could be used to send followers to a new-lands area also.

[Roadhouse699]

Seriously? Morrowind seemed like it was NavMeshed by a blind 6 year old.

[JakubDaviau]

Seriously? Morrowind seemed like it was NavMeshed by a blind 6 year old.

 

Well... it was not perfect that's for sure, but it allowed NPCs to get around the place, and it was fairly simple, mind that i don't want mod that would replace existing navmesh to something similar to one from morrowind, what i had in mind would be additional mechanic that would be on top of the original fallout 4 navmesh, to create simpler ways for settlers to get around settlements, so they could easily recognize where are stairs and how to get from their bedroom in a 6th floor of a tall building to crops on the other end of the town and such. Perhaps a better solution would be to make some scripting changes instead, so the settlers could get around easier in current environment without additional navmesh tool, or to allow them to teleport to where they want to go if they cant figure out how to get there