imperistan Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) sukeban Now, I've never been into communes or anarchist collectives, but I went to a school on the west coast where plenty of people definitely were. Some of these were your typical fashionable "college anarchists," but others were true believers. What I observed were that collectives began with ideologues, but were soon populated with shady drug abusers and scads of low-life burn-outs. They would take advantage of the relaxed nature of governance inside the collectives, and would use this absence of oversight to degrade the quality of life inside the collective with all sorts of anti-social behavior. This all to the great despair of the original founders, who discovered that many in their number had no idea whatsoever of the political foundation upon which their collective rested, and viewed it instead as something whose generosity should be exploited or preyed upon. In short, they didn't last. Perhaps it would have been different with a rigorous political or philosophical "entry exam" before gaining admittance, but even then, I am not 100% sure. One of my best friends also spent a year living very close to Christiania in Copenhagen and would write me horrified emails about sleazy heroine addicts cat-calling her whenever she tried to walk around or through the area. All of this, of course, is merely anecdotal, but it has been enough to convince me that a state is necessary in order to reign in patently anti-social behavior such as this. You do have a point, however in Christiania's defense they did try to deal with this at one point and ultimately the police screwed them over. From Wikipedia: One of the most significant community accomplishments in the history of Christiania was the 'junk blockade' in November 1979. The government was still very hostile but the community faced other acute challenges as well. Many Christiania residents were interested in mind-altering techniques, including psychotropic substances. During the late 1970s 'hard drugs' such as heroin were considered permissible, but this had grave consequences. In one year, from 1978 to 1979, ten people had died in Christiania from drug overdose; four of them were residents there. Most of them lived in a building called 'The Arc of Peace', which was in an extreme level of disrepair. Doors were missing, there were holes in the floors, and in most rooms there was no furniture except mattresses. It was a terribly unhealthy environment and the Christianites became increasingly aware that the situation could not continue.An attempt was made to cooperate with the police in order to get rid of the heroin pushers, which was something many Christianites felt extremely uncomfortable about due to their anarchical tradition and the continuous clashes between Christiania and the police. Despite the shared feelings of distrust, however, some Christianites felt there was no other way to fix such problem, and supplied the police with a list of suspected 'hard drug' users. The intention of the Christianites' decision was made very clear: police were to concentrate only on 'hard drugs'. This did not happen, and instead the police ignored the Christianites' requests and made a large crackdown only on the hash network, oddly leaving the heroin ring untouched. The police gave the names of "cooperating Christianites" to the hash dealers, and they had to leave Christiania for fear of reprisals I think it likely that if the Christianites had the same attitude then as they had in 1984 (where they evicted a biker gang that was causing issues in the town) they likely could have dealt with the problem on their own. Nowadays though I imagine what your friend experienced would be no different than what you could find in any other part of the city really. After all, the town is in the middle of a large city, so it would be rather easy for people like that to congregate there, especially considering what it is, just as they would any other less affluent and/or crime ridden part of the city. However, anti-social behavior like that isn't as big of an issue (in a city, it would be. But out in the countryside, where I'd prefer to set up such a society, not so much. And especially not to the point that its uncontrollable). A lot of times that behavior is directly because of the attempts of states to outlaw them. Sometimes its economics, and in the type of economics we practiced (a gift economy) that wouldn't be an issue. Sometimes these people are just terrible, and it won't matter whether you have a state or not. And in these cases, I've already stated the general response. The reality of all this is that I don't live in a theory I live in the real world with real people and where there is no authority, real authority, real people will do as they please to the detriment of others. Anarchy isn't for everyone, nor does it try to be. I've said this already. Edited February 22, 2012 by imperistan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marxist ßastard Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 Perhaps, after IT and robotics have rendered most all of human labor obsolete, we can, as a species, work to improve ourselves and eliminate our latent anti-social impulses.Okay, this will sound horribly OT, but bear with me... We've already had this happen. At the start of the Neolithic, it was suddenly possible for a community's former gatherers to produce the entire food supply through farming. Most of the former hunters quit hunting since it had become less needed and much harder. What did they do once technology made them redundant – did they relax? found the arts and sciences? form an egalitarian global society with free trade for all? Of course not. They started meaningless blood feuds which spanned dozens of generations. It took a powerful State to reign people back in. For example, look at Egypt: Current scholars agree that the pyramids were just huge make-work projects to keep people in-work and out-of-trouble during the inundation season. The project was so essential to public order that Egypt didn't stop building pyramids until it ran out of stone. When a technological advance puts most of the population out of work, the State becomes more essential, not less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukeban Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) When a technological advance puts most of the population out of work, the State becomes more essential, not less. Heh, I don't necessarily dispute that position. Truthfully, I would gaze, likely petrified with terror, upon a time when human exertion was no longer necessary to support human life. I can't help but think that would trigger some sort of massive existential crisis within humanity, leading to unfathomable depths (keke) of crime, peerless nihilism, and/or mass suicide what for the sheer ennui of it all. Which is, of course, a most pleasant thought :ohdear: Returning to the topic at hand, however, I would agree with you and posit that the liberation of human labor from both hunting and gathering (agriculture) and then agriculture itself (industrialization), has increased the net happiness enjoyed by those fortunate enough not to be engaged in these activities. As you've 'marxist' in your name, I would presume that you would agree with this as well, that technological advancement --> flourishing of the arts/humanity if and only if there is a strong state ready to wade into the breach, regulating the potential barbarism of listlessness and restraining capital from preying upon labor's newly acquired productivity. Workers are allowed to actually enjoy the fruits of their labor, which in turn allows them the time and material comfort necessary to become Michelangelo or Dali or Proust. Which is what we all want. So I agree with you. The above was more a thought exercise than a prediction. Viva the muscular polity. Edited February 22, 2012 by sukeban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 When a technological advance puts most of the population out of work, the State becomes more essential, not less. Tis the wonder of education to provide the means of curbing if not curing ones barbarism, even if there isn't mindless labor to occupy them. I personally think that treating the symptoms and ignoring the causes will just stagnate us. Sure, having everyone working does fine as treatment, but if you can't get rid of the urge to be barbaric in whatever way to begin with you'll just be treating the symptoms perpetually until the system just dies of old age, never actually moving forward. I'm not really a primitivist, but I think we should work towards perfecting ourselves as a species before we put so much focus on perfecting the things we make. Less we end up like this: http://netkinglive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/3.jpg But anyway, back to the topic at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyYou Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 When a technological advance puts most of the population out of work, the State becomes more essential, not less. Tis the wonder of education to provide the means of curbing if not curing ones barbarism, even if there isn't mindless labor to occupy them. I personally think that treating the symptoms and ignoring the causes will just stagnate us. Sure, having everyone working does fine as treatment, but if you can't get rid of the urge to be barbaric in whatever way to begin with you'll just be treating the symptoms perpetually until the system just dies of old age, never actually moving forward. I'm not really a primitivist, but I think we should work towards perfecting ourselves as a species before we put so much focus on perfecting the things we make. Less we end up like this: http://netkinglive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/3.jpg But anyway, back to the topic at hand. Perfecting ourselves???? Ooooooo...... Now THAT is a WHOLE new can of worms, with implications of selective breeding, and other such things human rights group would have an apoplectic fit over. Trouble is, until you actually start controlling the breeding of a species, you will not have control over the traits the population exhibits. That just ain't gonna happen any time in the near to mid range future. Civilizations come and go. That seems to be the norm, rather than the exception here on planet earth. Why? Humans. Take something perfectly fine, and human involvement will screw it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 When a technological advance puts most of the population out of work, the State becomes more essential, not less. Tis the wonder of education to provide the means of curbing if not curing ones barbarism, even if there isn't mindless labor to occupy them. I personally think that treating the symptoms and ignoring the causes will just stagnate us. Sure, having everyone working does fine as treatment, but if you can't get rid of the urge to be barbaric in whatever way to begin with you'll just be treating the symptoms perpetually until the system just dies of old age, never actually moving forward. I'm not really a primitivist, but I think we should work towards perfecting ourselves as a species before we put so much focus on perfecting the things we make. Less we end up like this: http://netkinglive.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/3.jpg But anyway, back to the topic at hand. Perfecting ourselves???? Ooooooo...... Now THAT is a WHOLE new can of worms, with implications of selective breeding, and other such things human rights group would have an apoplectic fit over. Trouble is, until you actually start controlling the breeding of a species, you will not have control over the traits the population exhibits. That just ain't gonna happen any time in the near to mid range future. Civilizations come and go. That seems to be the norm, rather than the exception here on planet earth. Why? Humans. Take something perfectly fine, and human involvement will screw it up. Jumping the gun a bit aren't we? Say what you want about crackpots who go on about selective breeding (which I wasn't referring to by the way) but it isn't a bad thing to push for humanity to improve as a species. Unless you're suggesting that its a bad thing that we finally move past our more barbaric instincts rather than just continually trying to ignore them through technology and other silly things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeyYou Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Instincts. See, even you admit that this isn't something that can just be turned off with a switch. Human nature is our biggest problem for ANY form of government..... Greed, Envy, pursuit of power for powers sake, etc. You will never rid the human race of such things. Just not gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperistan Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Instincts. See, even you admit that this isn't something that can just be turned off with a switch. Human nature is our biggest problem for ANY form of government..... Greed, Envy, pursuit of power for powers sake, etc. You will never rid the human race of such things. Just not gonna happen. Okay. And? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonspyre Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Humans are great at messing things up. Humans are terrible at knowing what is best for them. Humans are worst at functioning without hierarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moveing Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) Humans are great at messing things up. Humans are terrible at knowing what is best for them. Humans are worst at functioning without hierarchy.What a Garbage. I know what i wanna eat, which car i wanna drive, which bed i wanna sleep in and which agreements i can make to profit from them. If you think humans are so dumb, maybee some super Computer should decide for you. Where to live, what to eat and so on. Edited February 25, 2012 by Moveing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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