Weight related realism tweaks

[misterhamtastic]

I have been trying to figure out the tools, but beyond a few stat changes I'm not there yet, so if anyone can help me with this (or if you want to make this, that works,too) I'd appreciate it.

 

General Idea:

 

Think about what you can reasonably carry. Can you carry even 100 lbs in your arms without being strongly encumbered? How much could you reasonably carry in a back pack? The military tries to keep encumbrance down to 50 lbs or so on your back. I've only seen one person carry 100 lbs(possibly more, he was a ranger) on his back for a road march, and he was having a tough time towards the end. (Just a note, I've been out of the military for 15 years, these weights are probably incorrect. They are fairly easily researched if accuracy is important to you)

 

How about accessing that backpack to change weapons on the fly? Shouldn't you need to take it off and access it? Or what about that 12 inchx24inchx18inch (probably inaccurate) metal ammunition container you can stick 352 guns 37 power armors and let's not forget 3 million bottle caps in?

 

Finally, how about purchasing a pack brahmin? maybe there could be a tent you could buy for it to carry, but it could carry, say, 1000 lbs. It would need to be pretty easy to kill, though, so you'd have to guard it pretty well. (Perhaps something like Bess Brahmin you could purchase with a quest or something, just without the settlement building.)

 

What I'm thinking-Project Nevada rebal can change your weight calculations, so that's kind of taken care of. A backpack that you wear that you can take off and it turns into a container? I'm not sure where to start. Making that backpack's carrying capacity strength dependent? Is that scripting? I don't know that either.

 

As for containers-Maybe a list of some type for each container to say what could fit into it(no anti-material rifles in desks), plus maybe some kind of high but reasonable weight limit. Say 50 Lbs for a smallish box, 150 for a footlocker, 500 for a medium sized safe. It wouldn't need to change how much any objects or npcs start out carrying, just what can be put into them.

 

Of course it would need to attach some value to all the "weightless" objects, as well as be able to put down quest items. I believe there are mods to do exactly this, and those could be built upon, I'd imagine.

 

This is all with a mind to creating more of a "simulation" feel for the game. Yes, it probably makes it harder, but it would definitely increase the importance of lightweight weapons and armors, as well as making power armor more valuable if it carries itself. I'm thinking of Powered Power Armor Mod specifically.

 

Of course, some allowances would probably have to be made for various things. Can someone in T-51b power armor wear a backpack realistically? What about a super mutant? How do you factor in robot characters? (Thinking Smiley Tops's stuff). Should there be a pre-pack brahmin option-maybe a sled with a container or two on it or something?

 

See why I need help and advice? Please-If you have anything helpful to suggest or add I really would appreciate it.

Edited February 19, 2012 by misterhamtastic

[SHazardous]

I've been pondering about carry weight crazyness and how much space stuff take for a long time too. :) Sure it's common in games like this, but some games have it much closer to realistic way. Yes, diffrent stuff should take space according to their size. That alone would make the game more immersive. For example Silent Storm and STALKER have made this nicely. Stalker also has feature when you wear an armor its not in your inventory taking space. I believe/hope all these could be added into FONV too.

 

Also as you said carry weight limit should be smaller. I have lately made low strength characters and use pack-bag mods to to be able to carry more.

But this reguires me to decide to do it... would be great to have it as game/mod feature. I think there is a mod that makes weight affect to several things...the more stuff you carry more it affects. Just don't remember which it was.

 

About the pack Brahmin, there is at least one mod that has just the brahmin companion. http://newvegas.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=37723

What little I've tested it so far it seems just what I've been looking for. I'm actuallu in process of making pack-dog. But scripting it gives me headache. Also would like it to have feature that player has to get the bags for the dog. Otherwise it couldn't carry anything.

 

If someone combines features you said it would be sooop welcome improvement to realism and would make harder to decide what items to loot, less crazy looting. Also I like the fix idea that large weapons and stuff couldn't fit into too small containers.

[misterhamtastic]

I like the pack-brahmin companion, but I think I'd want to make a few changes. It should be killable. It should cost something. You should be able to get one from a rancher or something who sells it to you, and who has more than one if you lose this one. I really think there should be some sort of sled/cart or something you can pull along with you and drop for combat.(maybe keep it in inventory, but the box only has the box's weight, but you can't access it until you drop it in the game world.)

 

These boxes would probably be just what you want for your pack-brahmin, as you can carry far more packaged stuff than you'd be able to in a pile on the thing's back. Thinking about that-maybe the whole carryable/droppable box thing could be part of the solution to the backpack. Just have to figure out out to write a script that would tie the backpack's carrying capacity to your own strength and endurance. Maybe ((str/2)+(end/2))*15, or maybe 10. It'd probably be good to have a slider for this formula as well.

 

I don't know if I want to change overencumbered speed too much. Maybe at 100% encumbered you move 75% slower, at 200% encumbered you can't move at all(or so lowly you might as well not be moving). I think there should also be severe penalties if you are using the backpack or sled box. Like the sled box slows you down, you can't use two-handed weapons with it in inventory. With a backpack you lose 3 to agility and let's say 25 from guns/energy weapons skill, 15 from explosives skill, and 50 from melee and unarmed skills. That's why fighting infantry frequently drops their pack in place at any sign of a fight.

[Ladez]

Most of what you're talking about are stuff I have thought about making. I'm currently working on reducing armor weight when it's equipped and limiting the weapons and armor you can carry as well as ammunition for personal use, and i have several more ideas for realism tweaks. But most of it really is only ideas at the moment. That items take physical space as well as weight is also a concept I've been thinking about quite a bit and made some notes about, but I'm still not sure about it.

[misterhamtastic]

One of the biggest things for me is the whole weight calculation with or without a backpack. A 1 str character is not going to be able to pick up another 50 lbs of stuff. The only way I can think of to do this is to base the weight restriction on what you could reasonably carry in your arms and pockets. At that point you're thinking 30-75 lbs would be about right. Then you put on the backpack which adds str+end*5 weight allowance. This way you'd need 10 str and 10 end to increase your total carryweight by 100.

 

This brings me back to availability of equipment. If you stick your assault carbine in your backpack, it should probably not be readily available in the face of a surprise cazadore. I need to figure out how to make the backpack a container you can wear but only have access to the contents if you take it off.

 

That armor weighs less when you wear it, I don't know. I mean it's definitely easier to carry if you wear it, but if you put on a suit of ancient plate mail armor, it's gonna be hard to move anyway. Maybe instead of it weighing anything when you wear it, it could reduce you weight limit by half of it's own weight. Like 15 lb Leather would stop weighing anything when you put it on, but your weight allowance would drop by 7.5. You'd also need to consider heftier penalties for wearing non-powered heavy and medium armor. Personally, I've always thought Power Armor should weigh like 80 to 100 lbs anyway. So if you're just trying to tote it around, you're in trouble. It comes into it's own when worn by carrying itself, and then some.

[misterhamtastic]

Just to deal with this backpack thing, I think I need to make a copy of a box in GECK. Have it use the backpack graphic. Then write a script that when it's not equipped it's this backpack painted box. When equipped it's a backpack that you can wear so you now are effectively carrying this box on your back.

 

Then I need another script so that when you take it off it calculates your str and end by the formula I mentioned and applies it to itself. Then I could make the backpack weigh 1 lb or so and it can only carry what it's figured out as my weight allowance.

 

From that, I think I could figure out how to apply weight limits to boxes and such. I wonder if there's a way to categorize the boxes and stuff, or if I need to go through and change the weight limit manually on every placed box, desk, cabinet, cash register, refrigerator and safe, and probably some other things. If there's some way to categorize them, then it would make compatibility with other mods much easier.

 

I have to admit, this thinking was inspired by something I saw in AWOP. Somewhere you're reading about the containers, I think in the mini-vault home, and it talks about the ones in the home in one particular place as being made with"4D" technology, allowing you to put an infinite amount of things in them. It was saying this as if this was some new, uncommon thing.

[RevApoc]

Well, its cool to find this topic in the forum today of all days, because the GECK spark has triggered in my brain once again, and I am going to start working on my "Carrying Capacity Mass Project" that is based on item mass and nothing to do with the weight.

 

The game is completely unrealistic when it comes to weight capacity, and the "300 pounds?!" aspect isn't even the worst part. Just because a lunch box weighs X weight (I forget), you shouldn't be able to carry more than a realistic amount because of the bulk.

 

With my mod I plan on allowing the PC to always carry two 2-handed weapons, one 1-handed weapon, and one melee weapon, even when you aren't wearing anything at all. I will be giving every item in the game its own value of mass, and every different piece of armor you put on will change the amount of mass you can carry. For example, if you are wearing a Vault Suit, you can't carry much extra. If you are wearing the Roving Trader outfit, you can carry a bunch ("a bunch" still being really finite compared to Vanilla weight capacity).

 

Everyone complains that Stimpaks don't weigh anything on Hardcore mode, but even if they weighed 1 pound it would still be a joke. Upping their weight too high would makes things unrealistic.

 

Imagine only being able to carry 1, maybe 2 mines max? Or 3 or 4 grenades instead...

 

The only thing holding me back is not having someone to bounce ideas off of. Maybe you guys could help with that... For instance, is there even any room on any Power Armor to actually hold anything extra? Should ammo and caps have mass?

 

If I get on my PC tonight I'm going to use the GECK to summon every item so that I can start a scale of mass value for everything. Armors also. Anyways... what do you think?

[SHazardous]

I have a feeling these things have bothered many people with many games.

 

I personally like the idea that without packbags the amount you can carry is very limited. Only with bags mass could be more. Kinda what little you can stuf in your pockets and maybe some grenades and such on belts or straps or something. One bigger 2 handed wep and one smaller like smg or small assaultrifle and 1 or 2 pistols or similar sized weapons. If player had huge weapon like rocket launger that would take room from all 2-handed weapons. Knife of course. And with only with bag or sled-cart-thingie amount would be bigger. Also I like the idea that you'd need to take of your packbag to be able to pick up weapons that are in it. Fallout 1 and 2 had this nicely.. or was it Silent Storm..hmmm.. well everyother game most likely does thin. anyway you had only 2 slots where you could have weapons eguipped. Rifle + pistol, rifle + knife or what ever. Something similar might work here

 

I've also thought about power armors capacity. They really don't seem to have too much room to carry stuff. Maybe there could be attachment/mod you can get/buy and upgrade... some kind of extra container bolted to armors back. :) or just hoist a shopping cart on your back like Behemoths. :P

 

What comes to caps and ammo, I think from gameplay point of view it's propably not good to limit their amount too much. Or maybe give player options to choose the if they are limited or not. Combat system should be different if ammo amount is limited to more realistic. Killing and/or fatally wounding or just stopping enemy from fighting back should happen with less hits. Weapons should do more damage or damage they do now should matter more. LIke if you shoot enemys leg with assault rifle they wouldnt really fight back much more, at least not flee too well. As it is now you must spray bullets like crazy... partly cause of damage system partly cause fallouts engine just isnt that good when it comes to fast paced combat. Well headshot mod fixes this. :) But anywho IMHO limiting caps and ammo is problematic...personally I've never used mods that do it. But hey, its just me. =)

Edited February 19, 2012 by SHazardous

[misterhamtastic]

Power Armor- it kind of depends, doesn't? I picture T45D having a spot you could maybe modify to attach a backpack or something, but not T51b, since one is basically riveted steel and one is molded composites. I think if you're going to be using power armor, the idea is that this powered suit should be able to take care of you well enough that you can fit a couple of days worth of supplies in compartments or something, I don't know if that matches lore or whatever, it's just what I picture. I run powered power armor mod, and there'd probably be a way to make a seperate armor mod that somehow negatively effects your combat ability if you're using it, but you could take it off, much like a backpack.

 

I dunno. It's still not quite right, you know? I mean, weren't these armors designed to be in a place they were supplied with food and carried a few meds, not much, and a weapon or two. I think of power armor as needing to be something you wear when you REALLY need it. Maybe even something you keep packed up until you see something in the far distance.

 

My position on stims and caps having weight: how many bottle caps does it take to weigh a pound? how many stims? I mean, if we're talking a starting weight capacity of 35 or so pounds, They should probably weigh the equivalent of 3 or 4 to a pound for stims, but probably several hundred bottle caps per pound. Of course, you'd think that if they are going to use bottle caps for currency, they'd have some means of having different denominations. Maybe a Star bottle cap should be worth a thousand caps or something. Nukas could be 100s. I dunno, if that's even something to include with a weight mod or not.

 

Ammo is something different to consider. A bullet doesn't weigh much, but you should be able to carry three or four hundred rounds without completely overencumbering yourself, imho.

 

Here's a thought for you: When they designed power armor, if the power armored soldiers were to go on a long range mission into enemy territory, how would they carry their tents and stuff? Robot? Special armor mod? Cart they could drag?

[SHazardous]

Of course, you'd think that if they are going to use bottle caps for currency, they'd have some means of having different denominations. Maybe a Star bottle cap should be worth a thousand caps or something. Nukas could be 100s. I dunno, if that's even something to include with a weight mod or not.

I love this idea. I think it fits well to weight mod theme. After all it solves one big weight/mass problem. No more huge pouches of caps to carry all the tens of thousands caps you have. :D

Also, now that the idea has come up, I'm actually amazed this wasn't implemented in the game originally by the makers of Fallout 1 and 2.

 

 

Here's a thought for you: When they designed power armor, if the power armored soldiers were to go on a long range mission into enemy territory, how would they carry their tents and stuff? Robot? Special armor mod? Cart they could drag?

Good guestion. Did they ever go to longer missions by foot from their base? I think they were taken to longer distances by Vertibirds and then scout the area from there. At least thats the feel I get from Fallout 3. At least with Enclave cause they had their little camps with huge containers. But robots most likely were the ones that carried the stuff from vertibirds I guess.

But what about Brotherhood... not sure if they had Vertibirds. Well they did have working vehicles in Tactics but I'm not sure how lore friendly its considered. Also there was those Enclave patrols in Fallout two, but I don't remember if they had robots with them or how did they get to middle of deserts. :)

 

But in this case I think the robots would be the answer. The troops wouldn't want to hinder their combat agility or how fast they could drop their stuff and start the fight. So my answer would be robots, and propably they have some nicely mobile way to increase their capacity to carry stuff. I'm guessing carts would be too slow. Most likely attachments(?) Robobrains and Sentrybots could be best suited to be mules, as I think they are most stable bots. And quite fast too.

Edited February 19, 2012 by SHazardous