Should inmates have the right to vote in elections?

[Aurielius]

@Silver

 

Part of your thesis is dependent on the concept that all prisoners can be rehabilitated which I do not agree with, there is such a thing as evil and some evil persons are simply beyond the pale.

 

Second: If you reviewed the voting statistics of the US it would lead to the conclusion that only a third of the nation is actually involved in the process of democracy.

 

Third: Referring to us as a democracy is a misnomer we are a democratic republic an entirely different but similar political entity.

 

Fourth: Criminal justice is not a matter of debt and credits that is the province of the civil courts.

 

I'll give you points for altruism but none for pragmatism and penal justice is a very pragmatic affair, one look at the plea bargaining system would elucidate that. Sorry I am unconvinced by your well written thesis.

[SilverDNA]

@Silver

 

Part of your thesis is dependent on the concept that all prisoners can be rehabilitated which I do not agree with, there is such a thing as evil and some evil persons are simply beyond the pale.

 

Per se, all persons in jail are evil even those that take up the responsibility of their crimes ? okay easy to get this straight you don't see how a prisoner then can be rehabilitated ... Personal objection ... simply label all in the same box and shut it can i do this with military officers too by using stereotypes or not please ? ...

 

Second: If you reviewed the voting statistics of the US it would lead to the conclusion that only a third of the nation is actually involved in the process of democracy.

 

Yes the ideal reason to have only consumers of democracy but not participants. ***A man looking like JFK comes in and holds the famous "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country " speech *** easy now to see the difference democracy is not only a privilege and a burden it is also the citizens duty to uphold the those principles in a democracy .

 

 

Third: Referring to us as a democracy is a misnomer we are a democratic republic an entirely different but similar political entity.

 

So you admit that your country is based upon the basic principles of democracy ? If you strike out the word democratic the only word left is republic and what is a republic without an emperor ? is this what you want ?

 

Fourth: Criminal justice is not a matter of debt and credits that is the province of the civil courts.

 

You do have death penalties, care to answer why ? I hope not to get even with the criminal and why the fly are so many appeals are turned down then ? What is the most used reason for turning down those appeals in if you simplify it ? ( Don't try to haggle here because you already give answer to this in an old topic and it is exactly the opposite you did here ) Democracy as you see it fit at work perhaps ? Like I said before democracy can also be a burden care to carry it or is it too heavy suddenly? it is even an ad hominem based argument

 

I'll give you points for altruism but none for pragmatism and penal justice is a very pragmatic affair, one look at the plea bargaining system would elucidate that. Sorry I am unconvinced by your well written thesis.

 

Like I said used by many in the EU based on the historic event I mentioned with in 2 years all political opposition was either killed or in jail ( oh dear in jail then they would nt have the right to vote) if this would be applied and sadly it was applied not only but it became worse the citizens of that country that believed in democratic principles had gone into the underground because they lived in fear to oppose. Even throes who where former voters of the so established tyranny did do underground printing and debating one of the most prominent activists where from the white rose who where caught in bringing leaflets under the people and expressing their political opinion. They where caught they where sentenced to death and executed only to have an opinion.

 

Here two quotes from one prominent female member:

Somebody, after all, had to make a start. What we wrote and said is also believed by many others. They just don't dare express themselves as we did.

this was her Statement to the before the court

I am, now as before, of the opinion that I did the best that I could do for my nation. I therefore do not regret my conduct and will bear the

consequences that result from my conduct. excepts from the official examination transcripts

 

would you denies this lady in prison Today the right to vote in knowing what she did and what she was sentenced for ? Deny it then to all how political oppose your views.

 

If you prick us, do we not bleed?

If you tickle us, do we not laugh?

If you poison us, do we not die?

And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?

If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that.

The Merchant of Venice

William Shakespeare

Act 3, Scene 1, Page 3

my personal add

and if you take from us a right, don't you take a right from yourself?

insert in above line into the Shakespeare play as you seam fit

Edited February 25, 2012 by SilverDNA

[marharth]

Not going to read the rest of the topic because I saw a large part of it wasn't even about the title.

 

To answer the title, kinda. I think anyone who is mentally stable should be allowed to vote. If you are a serial killer, nope. If you are a simple thief that just wanted the newest device, or wanted food, then yes.

 

I have said before that people need to get the idea out of their head that everyone in prison or every criminal is bad. Crime happens for multiple reasons and some of them can be justified. You should at least be able to understand the reasons behind the crime and have some level of empathy. Not every single person in jail is a serial killer.

[Aurielius]

@Silver

 

Part of your thesis is dependent on the concept that all prisoners can be rehabilitated which I do not agree with, there is such a thing as evil and some evil persons are simply beyond the pale.

Per se, all persons in jail are evil even those that take up the responsibility of their crimes ? okay easy to get this straight you don't see how a prisoner then can be rehabilitated ... Personal objection ... simply label all in the same box and shut it can i do this with military officers too by using stereotypes or not please ? ...

Don't do the crime if you don't want to do the time. The second part is beneath you and am surprised that you even used it.

 

Second: If you reviewed the voting statistics of the US it would lead to the conclusion that only a third of the nation is actually involved in the process of democracy.

Yes the ideal reason to have only consumers of democracy but not participants. ***A man looking like JFK comes in and holds the famous "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country " speech *** easy now to see the difference democracy is not only a privilege and a burden it is also the citizens duty to uphold the those principles in a democracy .

This concept of consumers of a political system I reject completely, there are adherents, participants and indolents but no consumers.

 

Third: Referring to us as a democracy is a misnomer we are a democratic republic an entirely different but similar political entity.

So you admit that your country is based upon the basic principles of democracy ? If you strike out the word democratic the only word left is republic and what is a republic without an emperor ? is this what you want ?

I thought of all people you would be clear about the Republic and the Empire. The US is a representative democratic republic, I think that is fairly concise what part confuses you?

 

Fourth: Criminal justice is not a matter of debt and credits that is the province of the civil courts.

You do have death penalties, care to answer why ? I hope not to get even with the criminal and why the fly are so many appeals are turned down then ? What is the most used reason for turning down those appeals in if you simplify it ? ( Don't try to haggle here because you already give answer to this in an old topic and it is exactly the opposite you did here ) Democracy as you see it fit at work perhaps ? Like I said before democracy can also be a burden care to carry it or is it too heavy suddenly? it is even an ad hominem based argument

Many but all all states have the ultimate sanction of capital punishment, just what that had to do with prisoner enfranchisement is a slight mystery to me. That I support capital punishment is not something I shy away from here or in prior postings.

 

I'll give you points for altruism but none for pragmatism and penal justice is a very pragmatic affair, one look at the plea bargaining system would elucidate that. Sorry I am unconvinced by your well written thesis.

Like I said used by many in the EU based on the historic event I mentioned with in 2 years all political opposition was either killed or in jail ( oh dear in jail then they would nt have the right to vote) if this would be applied and sadly it was applied not only but it became worse the citizens of that country that believed in democratic principles had gone into the underground because they lived in fear to oppose. Even throes who where former voters of the so established tyranny did do underground printing and debating one of the most prominent activists where from the white rose who where caught in bringing leaflets under the people and expressing their political opinion. They where caught they where sentenced to death and executed only to have an opinion.

May I point out that the US is not the EU and your interpretation of the application of European law is interesting but hardly translates to us. You have made consistent attempts to use European values as a standard for the US...we are not part of the EU, we are governed from Washington and by our own laws and legal system.

 

<snip>

 

Edited February 25, 2012 by Aurielius

[jaysus]

well sure, in the US, unlike in europe, only "real" criminals for life, real badasses who only think evil are in jail... especiall since its such bad business to run a jail, you only make 700% win margin afterall...

nono, these people should never be allowed to vote, just like women or people with less income than my buddies, who all make 500k + a year

 

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

 

 

 

 

 

....edit: i hope the sarcasm is obvious :psyduck:

Edited February 25, 2012 by jaysus

[Dragonspyre]

My answer? Yes. Please, go ahead and give such a negligible right to them. They can't really do any damage with it.

 

Think about it... pretty much everyone who'd be running is likely a complete dolt. Regardless of country. It's not doing any more harm than if they didn't vote, as they are a minority of the populations. If it's a good person they miraculously found to vote for, even better, since that makes us closer to fixing problems. Either way, it's moot point, as popular vote doesn't have much affect. In countries other than the US, the imprisoned and ex-con populations are too small to be much difference. In the US, the popular vote never matters, as the electoral college is what actually counts.

 

It's laughable how pathetically little the right to vote would do for them.

[jaysus]

well, since voting just serves to further the nonsense of so called "politics" i totally have to agree with Dragonspyre...

doesnt really matter who they vote for anyway nor would their numbers make much of a difference, whoever wins an election just becomes a puppet of a system noone is allowed to vote for or against

[SilverDNA]

@at Aurelius

You mirrored yourself in your answer to my response all what you said in your response. Re-read this are the true answers to your 1st post that I tricked you to give them to you to yourself. Mostly there you will find yourself starring at you back. (3 ad homines and one indirect personal attack in your 1st post I saw as well and used them in my response against you) Please now don't rate me evil and a criminal that only before a province civil court can argue. **bow**

 

Back to topic...

I did select the method of debits and credits not only because it is widely used but as well most easy to understand and as such easy accessible.for a wide range of people. Simple people from the streets that have simple jobs that can as life some times play cruel tricks, find themselves in situations where they do something wrong even in thinking it was the right thing to do. (Do you read that Aurelius)?

 

Dragonspyre I support your argument from above with data from my country we have about 110.000 to 120.000 prisoners in jail in my country, and we have around 65.000.000 voters all in all for Bundestagswahl ( this includes the prisoners) sourced it from the Department of the Interior of the federal republic of Germany 2009

Edited February 26, 2012 by SilverDNA

[Jeoshua]

Having once had my right to vote stripped from me simply because I was in jail for a simple failure to appear miraculously finding me some 2 years after the fact (on a speeding ticket, no less), and having a president I would NOT have voted for foisted into office during that 1 month stay, I can safely say that I actually have an opinion on this.

 

Prisoners, no matter their crime, are still citizens of the United States of America. There simply does not need to be YET ANOTHER way that the right of a citizen to vote for who represents them to be stripped from them.

 

I don't mean to sound paranoid, but as a registered Democrat who was living in a poorer section of a mostly Republican state, I do sometimes wonder if I and the other 50-some-odd prisoners who were mysteriously abducted from our homes on trumped up traffic charges from years past were placed in this "protective custody" for the sole purpose of disallowing us from voting in the presidential elections.

 

So yes, I do believe that inmates of any and every stripe and crime should be allowed to vote. Just because someone has been found guilty, or is going to be tried for, a crime does not mean they have lost their citizenship, and without representation in the government the situation for them will continue to get more and more dire. Not to mention the potential for abuse as I pointed out above, and the possibility that those with less scruples than one might otherwise assume the average person to be possesed to abuse this disenfranchisement of prisoners for potential silencing of a portion of the vote for their own purposes.

[SilverDNA]

Having once had my right to vote stripped from me simply because I was in jail for a simple failure to appear miraculously finding me some 2 years after the fact (on a speeding ticket, no less), and having a president I would NOT have voted for foisted into office during that 1 month stay, I can safely say that I actually have an opinion on this.

 

Prisoners, no matter their crime, are still citizens of the United States of America. There simply does not need to be YET ANOTHER way that the right of a citizen to vote for who represents them to be stripped from them.

 

I don't mean to sound paranoid, but as a registered Democrat who was living in a poorer section of a mostly Republican state, I do sometimes wonder if I and the other 50-some-odd prisoners who were mysteriously abducted from our homes on trumped up traffic charges from years past were placed in this "protective custody" for the sole purpose of disallowing us from voting in the presidential elections.

 

So yes, I do believe that inmates of any and every stripe and crime should be allowed to vote. Just because someone has been found guilty, or is going to be tried for, a crime does not mean they have lost their citizenship, and without representation in the government the situation for them will continue to get more and more dire. Not to mention the potential for abuse as I pointed out above, and the possibility that those with less scruples than one might otherwise assume the average person to be possesed to abuse this disenfranchisement of prisoners for potential silencing of a portion of the vote for their own purposes.

I admire your courage speaking this out here and specially on the behalf of your fore posters arguments sharpness against inmates having the right to vote . I think it is just that courage that is needed to uphold the ground principles of a democracy and I wish more people like you would show that courage and Integrity.

Edited February 26, 2012 by SilverDNA