International Relations Omnibus

[ginnyfizz]

No, I didn't say we should force our values on anyone, what I did say that is when we do become aware of abuses of human rights then there is no reason we should not speak out about it. And neither did I say that anyone expects an apology for anything. I just feel that there is an awful lot of pot calling the kettle black going on and that it all cuts both ways - the West is certainly open to being criticised for decadence (look at any British city on a Friday or Saturday night) and corruption, but then other countries are also open to justifiable accusations of human rights abuse. AND the two sides are not mutually exclusive. It just seems to me that the reactions when your values are offended are somewhat different (witness the recent events in Afghanistan.) Just as HeyYou says.

 

@Ihoe, I did not mention Iran, and I am aware that female education is permitted and is of a high standard there. I am, however, involved with a group that deals with the abuse of females primarily in Afghanistan, but also in some parts of Pakistan, and have actually met with the surgeon who reconstructed the face of the young girl who had her nose cut off. By the accounts I am hearing, the situation for women in Afghanistan has regressed quite dramatically since the Taliban took hold.

[Ihoe]

No, I didn't say we should force our values on anyone, what I did say that is when we do become aware of abuses of human rights then there is no reason we should not speak out about it. And neither did I say that anyone expects an apology for anything. I just feel that there is an awful lot of pot calling the kettle black going on and that it all cuts both ways - the West is certainly open to being criticised for decadence (look at any British city on a Friday or Saturday night) and corruption, but then other countries are also open to justifiable accusations of human rights abuse. AND the two sides are not mutually exclusive. It just seems to me that the reactions when your values are offended are somewhat different (witness the recent events in Afghanistan.) Just as HeyYou says.

 

@Ihoe, I did not mention Iran, and I am aware that female education is permitted and is of a high standard there. I am, however, involved with a group that deals with the abuse of females primarily in Afghanistan, but also in some parts of Pakistan, and have actually met with the surgeon who reconstructed the face of the young girl who had her nose cut off. By the accounts I am hearing, the situation for women in Afghanistan has regressed quite dramatically since the Taliban took hold.

I Understand.

 

On the recent Rumors of another :wallbash: War that might break out Right here :ohdear: , Why do the western Gov's always have to make War on Peace (moderate) to keep Peace(less moderate)???? :unsure: Ideals can be important, but i don't believe that's the case with these Guys.

[HeyYou]

No, I didn't say we should force our values on anyone, what I did say that is when we do become aware of abuses of human rights then there is no reason we should not speak out about it. And neither did I say that anyone expects an apology for anything. I just feel that there is an awful lot of pot calling the kettle black going on and that it all cuts both ways - the West is certainly open to being criticised for decadence (look at any British city on a Friday or Saturday night) and corruption, but then other countries are also open to justifiable accusations of human rights abuse. AND the two sides are not mutually exclusive. It just seems to me that the reactions when your values are offended are somewhat different (witness the recent events in Afghanistan.) Just as HeyYou says.

 

@Ihoe, I did not mention Iran, and I am aware that female education is permitted and is of a high standard there. I am, however, involved with a group that deals with the abuse of females primarily in Afghanistan, but also in some parts of Pakistan, and have actually met with the surgeon who reconstructed the face of the young girl who had her nose cut off. By the accounts I am hearing, the situation for women in Afghanistan has regressed quite dramatically since the Taliban took hold.

I Understand.

 

On the recent Rumors of another :wallbash: War that might break out Right here :ohdear: , Why do the western Gov's always have to make War on Peace (moderate) to keep Peace(less moderate)???? :unsure: Ideals can be important, but i don't believe that's the case with these Guys.

 

Because war makes their campaign donators big bucks. Peace isn't nearly so profitable for them. To me, it looks like the various western governments, and israel, are just LOOKING for an excuse to pull the trigger, and start yet another war. Granted, the Iranian government, with their various actions and statements, are making it REALLY easy for them.......

 

Were it left up to me, I would drop all the sanctions against Iran, start buying their oil, so our prices would go down, and maybe our economy could improve some..... and if they develop nuclear weapons.... all well and good. Just so long as they don't USE one of those weapons, or, give it to someone else to use as their proxy. (hezbollah, hamas, whathaveyou.) I would like the think that the powers that be in Iran have a REAL good idea what would happen if they nuked ANYONE, not merely Israel.........

[marharth]

No, I didn't say we should force our values on anyone, what I did say that is when we do become aware of abuses of human rights then there is no reason we should not speak out about it. And neither did I say that anyone expects an apology for anything. I just feel that there is an awful lot of pot calling the kettle black going on and that it all cuts both ways - the West is certainly open to being criticised for decadence (look at any British city on a Friday or Saturday night) and corruption, but then other countries are also open to justifiable accusations of human rights abuse. AND the two sides are not mutually exclusive. It just seems to me that the reactions when your values are offended are somewhat different (witness the recent events in Afghanistan.) Just as HeyYou says.

 

@Ihoe, I did not mention Iran, and I am aware that female education is permitted and is of a high standard there. I am, however, involved with a group that deals with the abuse of females primarily in Afghanistan, but also in some parts of Pakistan, and have actually met with the surgeon who reconstructed the face of the young girl who had her nose cut off. By the accounts I am hearing, the situation for women in Afghanistan has regressed quite dramatically since the Taliban took hold.

I Understand.

 

On the recent Rumors of another :wallbash: War that might break out Right here :ohdear: , Why do the western Gov's always have to make War on Peace (moderate) to keep Peace(less moderate)???? :unsure: Ideals can be important, but i don't believe that's the case with these Guys.

 

Because war makes their campaign donators big bucks. Peace isn't nearly so profitable for them. To me, it looks like the various western governments, and israel, are just LOOKING for an excuse to pull the trigger, and start yet another war. Granted, the Iranian government, with their various actions and statements, are making it REALLY easy for them.......

 

Were it left up to me, I would drop all the sanctions against Iran, start buying their oil, so our prices would go down, and maybe our economy could improve some..... and if they develop nuclear weapons.... all well and good. Just so long as they don't USE one of those weapons, or, give it to someone else to use as their proxy. (hezbollah, hamas, whathaveyou.) I would like the think that the powers that be in Iran have a REAL good idea what would happen if they nuked ANYONE, not merely Israel.........

I will expand on this in case people did not fully understand how that works.

 

The corporations that create weapons are a huge lobbying force in Washington. Politicians care about the money and will start entire wars just to gain some profit from these corporations. People don't seem to understand how big of a issue lobbying is for some reason.

 

Why would Iran even consider using Nukes? If they used a nuke it would be the end of their country almost instantly. I agree with you but I am amazed that people can buy into the medias bull. Like seriously? A small nation that is hated by one of the strongest USA's allies is going to use a WMD on a huge world power? That is suicide.

Edited February 27, 2012 by marharth

[dazzerfong]

@ Marharth:

 

Exactly the point. When a country possessing nuclear weapons reaches a point where it has nothing to lose, it will ignore MAD's consequences.

[marharth]

@ Marharth:

 

Exactly the point. When a country possessing nuclear weapons reaches a point where it has nothing to lose, it will ignore MAD's consequences.

Why would it reach that point UNLESS we invade them?

 

True if they have nothing to lose they might turn to a "take as many people down with us" mentality, but they wouldn't have to do that if no one invades them.

[Nintii]

Sorry for the late reply ...

 

@ Balagor and Tidus44 ... To start with I watch (when I can), Sky News, CNN, E-news, RT -Russia News channel, Euro News, NDTV - Indian News channel,

CCTV - Chinese News ... I would have also had Fox and MSNBC but I cancelled my subsciption with my second cable company ... though I do have a couple

of "Finance" only orientated channels that I watch as well like Bloomberg etc and they cover a lot of "news' as well.

 

The thing is this, ALL of the Western media is biased against Assad and wants him to go for "democracie's" sake ... well democracy only works when a

Constituition or Bill of Rights is in place, otherwise it's just a valid way for a populist uprising to take place irrespective of whether or not the government to

follow is repressive or not ...

"We have had a democratic vote and the people are decided" ... this normally seems to placate the West ... but how many of these so called "democratically"

elected governments turned out to be total failures with massive human rights abuses ... do yourself a favor and GOOGLE ... "failed African Democracies" or

just type "failed democracies" ...

They say that "repetition is the mother of all learning" and so I'll say it again ... Democracy only works when a Constituition and Bill of Rights is part and parcel

of the "new" order.

 

And if you carefully scrutinize the bunch who wants to overthrow Assad, you are going to have repression, Sharia law which is opposed to freedom for women

and education etc etc etc.

The New Media is not always right - you should know that by now - thank heavens Rupert Murdoch and his ilk and finally getting some payback ... as they say, what

goes around comes around.

And yes, of course the news in DK and elswhere is going to show the poor and suffering refugees, but they don't talk about or give a rat's behind for the

suffering to come ... let's just get the "democratically elected" guys in ... right ? ..... NO, WRONG !

 

Sukeban's post right after Tidus44's was on the button when he spoke of Assad keeping the whole thing together ... Yes, it might be a dictatorship

but in this instance it is a lot better than what's to come if the extremists come into power.

 

Oh, and as far as the Quran burning thing is concerned, Bibles, flags etc and burnt without the West freaking out, so I'm not

going to lose any sleep over that.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Nintii

[Ihoe]

Sorry for the late reply ...

 

@ Balagor and Tidus44 ... To start with I watch (when I can), Sky News, CNN, E-news, RT -Russia News channel, Euro News, NDTV - Indian News channel,

CCTV - Chinese News ... I would have also had Fox and MSNBC but I cancelled my subsciption with my second cable company ... though I do have a couple

of "Finance" only orientated channels that I watch as well like Bloomberg etc and they cover a lot of "news' as well.

 

The thing is this, ALL of the Western media is biased against Assad and wants him to go for "democracie's" sake ... well democracy only works when a

Constituition or Bill of Rights is in place, otherwise it's just a valid way for a populist uprising to take place irrespective of whether or not the government to

follow is repressive or not ...

"We have had a democratic vote and the people are decided" ... this normally seems to placate the West ... but how many of these so called "democratically"

elected governments turned out to be total failures with massive human rights abuses ... do yourself a favor and GOOGLE ... "failed African Democracies" or

just type "failed democracies" ...

They say that "repetition is the mother of all learning" and so I'll say it again ... Democracy only works when a Constituition and Bill of Rights is part and parcel

of the "new" order.

 

And if you carefully scrutinize the bunch who wants to overthrow Assad, you are going to have repression, Sharia law which is opposed to freedom for women

and education etc etc etc.

The New Media is not always right - you should know that by now - thank heavens Rupert Murdoch and his ilk and finally getting some payback ... as they say, what

goes around comes around.

And yes, of course the news in DK and elswhere is going to show the poor and suffering refugees, but they don't talk about or give a rat's behind for the

suffering to come ... let's just get the "democratically elected" guys in ... right ? ..... NO, WRONG !

 

Sukeban's post right after Tidus44's was on the button when he spoke of Assad keeping the whole thing together ... Yes, it might be a dictatorship

but in this instance it is a lot better than what's to come if the extremists come into power.

 

Oh, and as far as the Quran burning thing is concerned, Bibles, flags etc and burnt without the West freaking out, so I'm not

going to lose any sleep over that.

 

Performing an autopsy on the Word "Democracy" which hails from ancient Greek City-States, states with legalized "Slavery", "Abuse against Women" and Lollygagging etc, just ticks something into my mind: What makes Self Proclaimed Human Rights Right???

[Balagor]

@Nintii.

I do not need to google failed african democracies, since I allready know, and it was not my reply on the first hand. I do not oppose dictatorships, if the dictator is doing something good for the people. Neither do I support the forcing of western democracy on any country.

What I oppose is when citizens get killed, and medias blur the truth.

I do not need to hear about the refugees through DK television, as I told you; they are here. Plenty. I can speak to them in vivre.

You even refer to European media. I still can not recognise what you have heard, that Assad should be an angel, and the rebels are sole extremists.

Still, I wonder then why our EU council has made sanction after santion against Assad´s Syria, and we fight a hard diplomatic fight against the Russians to bring those sanctions into action, if it´s all such a lie?

[Nintii]

My dear Balagor, I fully understand your stance on violence towards people - and like you I don't care which side people are on, violence against people is just not right ... yes, I agree with you on that fully, 100% ... BUT ... collateral damage is a fact of life ... war is a *........* and no one wants that dog.

But sometimes we need to feed that animal to keep the cats from the birds.

 

Assad is NO ANGEL, not by a long shot, but he is a lot better than what's to come, therefore, if I had to choose sides, it would be his side.

And as for the Russians, they are - in my eyes - balance ... not always right but nevertheless "balance" to an otherwise rampant Western lunacy called "We are always right".

 

@ Ihoe "What makes Self Proclaimed Human Rights Right???" ....................... I uh, do it by the barrel of my gun ?

Edited February 27, 2012 by Nintii