International Relations Omnibus

[Flintlockecole]

Salutations Nexus Denizens.

 

The title says it all. I figure that one larger thread is better than a separate thread for each potential issue, but do correct me if this assumption is incorrect.

 

Potential discussion subjects:

 

A. Rise of China as world power

B. Iran-Israel-US-Europe

C. Greek sovereign debt/future of EU

D. Syria/Arab Spring

E. Whatever interesting items are in your local paper

 

Thanks for reading/commenting!

 

A: Can't really say much on that matter other than any conventional war with em wouldn't be any good.

 

B: Why can't the US/Europe leave that area of the world alone, let them sort out their problems like they have the last few thousand years, none of our business really. Not like your going to stomp all over your neighbours flowers because he grows them in his own way and not yours.

 

C: Let the whole thing collapse, theres no use to fund something that'll never get out of debt, much like a failing company, why invest in something that spends more than it makes?

 

D: See Figure "B"

 

E: People being sheep, the local media disgusts me in more than one way.

[WizardOfAtlantis]

@Wizard

 

B. Definitely no peace until the Palestinian issue is resolved. The double-standard that is applied here is absolutely appalling, and definitely invites questions of undue AIPAC/Israeli influence within our government. I facepalm during Republican debates when they fall all over themselves trying to prove who is the better friend to Israel/tougher on Arabs/Iran. Makes me wonder whose presidency they are truly running for.

 

C. Interested more in your perspective on Greece. Do you think they still belong in the EU? Do you think it was a mistake to allow some of these peripheral nations (Greece, Portugal, Romania, Bulgaria, etc.) in?

 

E. Is it true that mafia is the largest creditor in Italy? I believe I read that somewhere. Mr. Berlusconi makes for amusing reading, if nothing else.

B. Yeah, I think some pretty big deals were made between the Jewish Big-Wigs and the Anglo-Saxon Contingent prior to/during the outbreak of the First World War. Unless I'm mistaken, there were Jewish territorial lines drawn after WW1, and only then cemented after WW2 for various reasons.

How can the Palestinian issue ever be resolved? Palestine is full of Palestinians...just as Israel is full of Israelis. In the game of The One, there can be only one.

C. I'm sorry to disappoint, but I don't know much about the situation....except to say, for as strange as it may sound to some ears, I am glad that they are rioting to show their displeasure at how things have been handled. Democracy is not the be-all, end-all. It could be, but not when there are crooks and/or incompetents in command.

What is the real goal of the European Union? I mean, really...it seems a little power-hungry to me to snap up just about all comers (except the Arab ones, of course....ha, sorry, couldn't resist. I hope everyone understands that context!) and then expect it to work. Greece hasn't had a powerful economy since Pagan times, unless I'm mistaken. Romania and Bulgaria aren't exactly over-developed, either.

So what's the point in bringing them in? Is the whole thing supposed to work or not? Is it to simply rival the dollar and stave off the Russians and China? I don't know. The only thing about the Eu that makes sense to me is that it really is just another stepping stone for the One World Money unit/Centralized Bank.

E. In Italy, the mafia is far larger than anyone outside of Italy could comprehend. Many Italians would scoff at it, but unless they're stupid or simple, they will at lest know deep down it's true. Many others, though, know the score. Italy's corruption levels score like a Central African country (I wish I remembered where I saw that). Plus, you have the Church, which is basically one big tax exempt Bank that of course has ties to everybody (watch the Godfather 3), and then you have the politicians who basically work for those two bigger powers. Not all politicians, of course, but enough. Ruling governments shake shady hands to make their deals. And where outright shadiness ends, nepotism takes over so things get really hairy.

Of course, that's the Real Mafia, not the little "m" mafia guys that you see the cops bust on tv, who are on the lam and hiding out in some farm or apartment. No, the Real Mafia are big, behind-the-scenes guys who won't ever get caught. It's difficult if not impossible to see where mafia/church/politicians separate. Not all members of the second two, of course! But enough. There are books and web stuff on all this. It's not my opinion.

 

 

[Ihoe]

Sukeban, I applaud you for being relatively new and starting a fresh topic. Personally I think it may be a bit too large in scope for one thread, but perhaps not.

 

A. The rise of China as a world power has been coming for at least 25 years. It is no big surprise, and we all should have been prepared for it long ago. In my opinion we need to be mindful of the history of that Nation.

 

B. The situation in the middle east has been and ever will be, in my opinion, the most volitile in the world. Unless and until someone in that area can come up with a way to enable the inhabitants to come to a mutual trust and understanding of one another, very little will change in that region. In my opinion, the US and Europe have very little to do with it.

 

C. I see Greece as just the tip of the iceburg insofar as the likely collapse of the world's economy unless and until all of our leader's begin to face reality and take a close look in the mirror and acknowledge some of the real causes of the financial crises around the globe.

 

D. To some extent, read "B", above.

 

E. If we do not begin to pay attention to the fact that people need real jobs and real healthcare, all the politicians from both sides of the aisle may find themselves out of work fairly soon.

As for Part B I can easily Say what they ARE doing is affecting (nettling) the middle east. sanctions (is that what they're called???), put on my own country by them :whistling: are driving the prices sky high, that just makes it harder for people :dry: to live. I have no Idea how it can affect the Government officials, but since they really can't give a sh*t about the civies welfare (like they did for the past 2000 years) it shouldn't trickle them much. God knows what other clandestine affairs either government is doing. a Benign solution, such as the one you mentioned is not a solution at all, it's the problem, It can't Mollify, it's Interference. And all the haggard civies are left with are Complacent supreme man-god-donkeys to rule over them because of a spendthrift mistake they made 33 years ago. however I as one, speak for oneself. but I Digress. this whole Nuclear horse**it is being stretched a lot by vacillating Officials. (maybe that's the whole point of it??? :unsure: )

 

Just one last thing, there's a certain nebulous rumor that the ACME Monkey Ahmadinejad, is in fact, a Jew.

 

EDIT: if I disappear with Dearth reason, the ISS took me in.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Ihoe

[Tidus44]

A. Rise of China as world power

Difficult to predict, but currently their communist/liberal capitalist and peaceful emergence philosophy has them growing economically and gaining a strong influence over the eastern/asian world.

The problem is energy (oil/coal/gas) as they are supposedly near depletion levels and China is faced with competition with the west in obtaining energy. China is purchasing huge quantities of LNG from Australia now.

The energy issue will be the point of how will they pursue their needs, in a hard or soft manner?

The west cannot take on China in any type of military conflict – they will lose and lose quickly – the only hope is diplomatic. China is not specifically recognized as a world power (militarily or economically) based upon traditional thought, but how many nuclear warheads are needed to constitute a threat and how much does their economy need to grow to be deemed a power to be reckoned with?

China has a different philosophy than the west currently – nonaggression and essential defence – and has the growing economy and immerging technology to out distance the west and Europe as a military power.

If (and most likely when) they consolidate their economic influence over the eastern/asian world this will have a significant impact on the west as far as trade and economy goes as China will be capable of producing for China and the asian world. Trade with the west will be hugely impacted.

There are two possible negatives, they collapse due to various internal issues forcing a change in philosophy or are negatively impacted by external influences. The positive is that China continues to gain and does achieve a recognized status as a nonaggressive world power economically and socially.

 

B. Iran-Israel-US-Europe

Continued conflict until the end of time. Well, at least as long as the west thinks it knows what the issue is and how to solve it, and so long as Israel is afraid to tell the west to “shove off” for fear of reprisal or rejection, the west will continue to screw things up and cause problems. The emergence of China as a “friend” to the energy suppliers in the middle east is going to cause significant problems due to the west's ideas on the area.

 

C. Greek sovereign debt/future of EU

Complete economic collapse and years of recovery to see any level of stabilization. By the time things get straightened out, China will own almost everything. Better start learning Mandarin.

 

D. Syria/Arab Spring

Democracy wins in the end. Maybe 10-20 years of turmoil yet, depends if the west continues to fund everyone involved in the conflict, including the dictators. Again, China has significant interest in this part of the world and as they grow stronger and the west weaker, this will be interesting to see.

 

E. Whatever interesting items are in your local paper

Political candidate throws hat into the ring – his name? Bob Loblaw (say it out loud – perfect name for a politician).

[grannywils]

Ihoe said:

"As for Part B I can easily Say what they ARE doing is affecting (nettling) the middle east. sanctions (is that what they're called???), put on my own country by them are driving the prices sky high, that just makes it harder for people to live. I have no Idea how it can affect the Government officials, but since they really can't give a sh*t about the civies welfare (like they did for the past 2000 years) it shouldn't trickle them much. God knows what other clandestine affairs either government is doing. a Benign solution, such as the one you mentioned is not a solution at all, it's the problem, It can't Mollify, it's Interference. And all the haggard civies are left with are Complacent supreme man-god-donkeys to rule over them because of a spendthrift mistake they made 33 years ago. however I as one, speak for oneself. but I Digress. this whole Nuclear horse**it is being stretched a lot by vacillating Officials. (maybe that's the whole point of it??? )"

 

Ihoe, I may not have been entirely clear in my original post regarding Item B. My post was intentionally brief. I shall attempt to clarify. I was not intending to say that outsiders needed to help the middle east come to grips with their disillusionment with one another; but rather just the opposite. I was attempting to say that we needed to get our butts out of other peoples' business, as we are already causing more problems then they had before we arrived. Whether or not our intentions are/were good (and I will reserve any comment on that), if we and the Europeans really want to see peace in that region, the one thing that we cannot do is "choose sides". There is too much history amongst all of the peoples living there; and it goes way beyond governments and political systems. It is older by far than the United States and most of Europe. I recognize the dangers in just butting out, but I also acknowledge that we, i.e. the U.S. and Europe are not the world's policemen and cannot be responsible for seeing to it that everyone behaves in a manner that we deem appropriate.

 

Once again, this is a somewhat over simplistic description of my view, but gives a little more information than the last. I hope it is helpful.

 

 

[HeyYou]

Quite frankly Granny, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. The US still suffers under the illusion that we are "The" superpower in the world, and therefore, have the right/duty to enforce our views of 'how things should be' on the rest of the world. While that may work in D.C. it sure as hades doesn't work in the real world. Which really doesn't come as a surprise...... Maybe Ron Paul has a point..... Have america take care of AMERICA, and let the rest of the world sort itself out......

[Aurielius]

<snip>

There is too much history amongst all of the peoples living there; and it goes way beyond governments and political systems. It is older by far than the United States and most of Europe.

Sorry Granny, but your history is in error, look no farther back than the Peace of Versailles and the subsequent Treaty of Sèvres . The Allied powers mainly Britain and France promised the Arabs independence in return for their aid against the Ottoman Turks in the First World War, then double crossed them by not giving them a unified Arab state but rather breaking them up into small component pieces that would be more easily manged by the European powers. In addition the borders took no account of ethnicity or tribal areas but were simply straight geographic lines on the map. Most of the wars of the middle to latter half of the 20th Century can be traced back to this accord. If we then throw in the division of Palestine at the end of the Second World War, there is direct cause and effect.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Aurielius

[sukeban]

Quite frankly Granny, I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. The US still suffers under the illusion that we are "The" superpower in the world, and therefore, have the right/duty to enforce our views of 'how things should be' on the rest of the world. While that may work in D.C. it sure as hades doesn't work in the real world. Which really doesn't come as a surprise...... Maybe Ron Paul has a point..... Have america take care of AMERICA, and let the rest of the world sort itself out......

 

I'm 100% supportive of Dr. Paul's position on foreign policy, though... not so much the rest of his platform. The US (and to a lesser extent Europe) should be in the business of sorting their own issues not, not wasting time, money, and lives in foreign adventures.

 

Being involved in these conflicts/stationing military elements in sensitive areas is not making anybody more secure; rather, it is doing the opposite. Anti-Western sentiment in the mideast is directly related to our collective imperial legacy/interference there.

 

Withdrawing from these areas wouldn't eliminate anti-Western sentiment overnight, but it would allow citizens in the mideast to correctly identify their number one obstacle to progress--their own governments. How popular would the Iranian regime be if they didn't have the US/Europe to bash and martial public opinion against? If we left Iran well alone, Iranians would have to ask the hard questions as to why their economy is in shambles and why they are denied the freedoms that the internet tells them other people, even in the mideast, are presently enjoying. At that point, I would not give the regime a particularly robust bill of health.

 

EDIT: Real talk to what Aurelius mentioned above.

Edited February 23, 2012 by sukeban

[Ihoe]

Ihoe said:

"As for Part B I can easily Say what they ARE doing is affecting (nettling) the middle east. sanctions (is that what they're called???), put on my own country by them are driving the prices sky high, that just makes it harder for people to live. I have no Idea how it can affect the Government officials, but since they really can't give a sh*t about the civies welfare (like they did for the past 2000 years) it shouldn't trickle them much. God knows what other clandestine affairs either government is doing. a Benign solution, such as the one you mentioned is not a solution at all, it's the problem, It can't Mollify, it's Interference. And all the haggard civies are left with are Complacent supreme man-god-donkeys to rule over them because of a spendthrift mistake they made 33 years ago. however I as one, speak for oneself. but I Digress. this whole Nuclear horse**it is being stretched a lot by vacillating Officials. (maybe that's the whole point of it??? )"

 

Ihoe, I may not have been entirely clear in my original post regarding Item B. My post was intentionally brief. I shall attempt to clarify. I was not intending to say that outsiders needed to help the middle east come to grips with their disillusionment with one another; but rather just the opposite. I was attempting to say that we needed to get our butts out of other peoples' business, as we are already causing more problems then they had before we arrived. Whether or not our intentions are/were good (and I will reserve any comment on that), if we and the Europeans really want to see peace in that region, the one thing that we cannot do is "choose sides". There is too much history amongst all of the peoples living there; and it goes way beyond governments and political systems. It is older by far than the United States and most of Europe. I recognize the dangers in just butting out, but I also acknowledge that we, i.e. the U.S. and Europe are not the world's policemen and cannot be responsible for seeing to it that everyone behaves in a manner that we deem appropriate.

 

Once again, this is a somewhat over simplistic description of my view, but gives a little more information than the last. I hope it is helpful.

Thank you for your kind reply :thumbsup: .

 

I'm 100% supportive of Dr. Paul's position on foreign policy, though... not so much the rest of his platform. The US (and to a lesser extent Europe) should be in the business of sorting their own issues not, not wasting time, money, and lives in foreign adventures.

 

Being involved in these conflicts/stationing military elements in sensitive areas is not making anybody more secure; rather, it is doing the opposite. Anti-Western sentiment in the mideast is directly related to our collective imperial legacy/interference there.

 

Withdrawing from these areas wouldn't eliminate anti-Western sentiment overnight, but it would allow citizens in the mideast to correctly identify their number one obstacle to progress--their own governments. How popular would the Iranian regime be if they didn't have the US/Europe to bash and martial public opinion against? If we left Iran well alone, Iranians would have to ask the hard questions as to why their economy is in shambles and why they are denied the freedoms that the internet tells them other people, even in the mideast, are presently enjoying. At that point, I would not give the regime a particularly robust bill of health.

 

EDIT: Real talk to what Aurelius mentioned above.

I must also add that some people have already found out, but with the threat of a war :nuke: breaking out, they'd rather back an ethnic Despot to bow for a foreign-backed Muppet (or maybe a foreign Muppet? :unsure: or the Muppets?), in a metaphoric form. :turned:

 

EDIT: Oooh oooh The Supreme Jimbo just declared That: " Owning Nuclear Weaponry is a deadly Sin :devil: ." Oooh oooh.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Ihoe

[grannywils]

Aurielius said: "Sorry Granny, but your history is in error, look no farther back than the Peace of Versailles and the subsequent Treaty of Sèvres . The Allied powers mainly Britain and France promised the Arabs independence in return for their aid against the Ottoman Turks in the First World War, then double crossed them by not giving them a unified Arab state but rather breaking them up into small component pieces that would be more easily manged by the European powers. In addition the borders took no account of ethnicity or tribal areas but were simply straight geographic lines on the map. Most of the wars of the middle to latter half of the 20th Century can be traced back to this accord. If we then throw in the division of Palestine at the end of the Second World War, there is direct cause and effect."

 

 

I think, once again I have failed to make myself clear and will make another attempt. I am not suggesting that we have never attempted to help; in fact, quite the opposite. Nor am I suggesting that we have not been involved since time immemorial in a variety of military and political capacities attempting to set things right (or wrong as the case may be). What I was attempting to say was that these people have their own history as a people, and it differs tremendously from ours. And if I am not mistaken (and I may be) they have been around longer than we have. They have a right and a responsibility to work out their differences amongst themselves. You may be correct in saying that (edit: others) helped to cause the problem, but we are certainly at this point not helping to solve it.