JonathanOstrus Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 (edited) TL;DL The new v1.10.15 CK with the new ESL support changes the detection behavior of the file type. Now recognizing only ".ESM" or ".ESL" files as masters and ".ESP" as strictly plugin regardless of the header flags. Thus saving a plugin that references a ".ESP" will have all those references removed. I just want to throw in my 2 cents here. You're all not going crazy. No amount of reinstalling will "fix" the CK. However if you have a backup copy of the old 1.8.10 CK exe you can use that until Bethesda (hopefully) fixes this oversight. However to make an ESL you would still need to use the new 1.10.15 CK which will still strip off your ESP "masters". Some quick background for those late to the party: With the latest CK (1.10.15) Loading a normal ESP plugin which references ESP "master" files (whether they have the ESM flag or not) will cause the ESP master files to be removed upon saving. This is happening by either direct saving, **or** converting to an ESL. If you open the data window in the new version to load files you will notice that ESPs even with the ESM flag will show as "Plugin File" in the status column instead of Master as they previously did (see screenshot below). Why Bethesda suddenly decided to make this change is beyond me. I can only fathom it stems from their wiki page which states, "A plugin ESP file may only rely on data from itself and any master ESM files." Oddly taking a regular ESP plugin (without the ESM flag) and renaming it to ESM makes the new CK think it is a Master. Adding it and saving your file includes it in the master list. Without needing the ESM flag that was previously required. This seems to flow with their statement that ESMs are masters and ESPs are simply a plugin. This actually may be quite problematic for some mods. There are 2 that I use that have masters with .ESP names. Unofficial Fallout 4 Patch, and New Calibers. UFO4P Probably won't matter because I don't think any mods use it as a master. However, New Calibers is used by many mods. With the new 1.10.15 version of CK none of those can be edited. Some might suggest the master plugin file could be renamed and then each mod that uses it as a master could be updated using xEdit to manually change the filename in the header of the mod plugin. Leaving aside the tediousness or the fact that some authors may no longer be available to do the patching and release updates for their mods this is just generally a bad practice. As Bethesda has said before, removing mods mid game is neither recommended or supported and will cause issues. A few such problem examples. The New Calibers master has 2 quests that run to inject items into leveled lists. They would then re-run causing a second set to be added. The first set no longer being valid because of the removed mod will now have null entries in the leveled list which will cause errors if they were to be selected in the enumeration of the list. Any weapons who had object mods from New Calibers would also be broken because their references would no longer be valid. Any of the new ammunition types that had been spawned would suddenly be missing. This would include any in ammo boxes, on the player, on other actors, etc. There may be other issues I'm not thinking of right now as well. On a side note loading an ESL as a master also allows you to use records and save it as a master to your file. Based on the detail from the wiki page this seems like a bad practice as the form ids may be subject to change from the compact id feature. This would cause all sorts of issues with slave plugins referencing an ESL as a master. Some screenshots The fake masters with ESM flags. Both versions of CK with the same data files. Edited August 18, 2017 by BigAndFlabby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobBruce Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 (edited) This actually may be quite problematic for some mods. There are 2 that I use that have masters with .ESP names. Unofficial Fallout 4 Patch, and New Calibers. UFO4P Probably won't matter because I don't think any mods use it as a master. However, New Calibers is used by many mods. With the new 1.10.15 version of CK none of those can be edited. Some might suggest the master plugin file could be renamed and then each mod that uses it as a master could be updated using xEdit to manually change the filename in the header of the mod plugin. Leaving aside the tediousness or the fact that some authors may no longer be available to do the patching and release updates for their mods this is just generally a bad practice. As Bethesda has said before, removing mods mid game is neither recommended or supported and will cause issues.---On a side note loading an ESL as a master also allows you to use records and save it as a master to your file. Based on the detail from the wiki page this seems like a bad practice as the form ids may be subject to change from the compact id feature. This would cause all sorts of issues with slave plugins referencing an ESL as a master. OMG who at Bethesda thinks this crap is a good idea... I've been unable to update my mod which I just released because of this issue and it has a fairly serious bug that needs to be fixed. My mod relies on two other mods that have not been updated in a while and I don't have permission from all mod authors to merge everything into one mod. This is going to prevent every single mod which has an esp master from being updated without also altering the master list. This is completely ridiculous nonsense and whoever thought this was a good idea needs to be immediately fired. I get the point of wanting esp's to be plugins as intended but you cannot suddenly change something that a great deal of mods rely on. This better be fixed. Edited August 18, 2017 by JacobBruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabrine Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 1 copy the .esp file only in your data file and rename it to .esm so that you'll have two files of the same mod: .esp and .esm2 Open your mod with the FO4edit, on the right side on the header tag you'll see a list of your referenced master files3 rename the reference to the master file on the right side to .esm instead of .esp (Do not add the .esm as another master to your mod or the FO4edit will consider it as another mod)4 save and open your mod on the creationkit If you did the steps the right way you should find the content of your mod unaffected for the version you want to upload to users, reverse the steps so that you'll end up using the .esp file instead and do not save your plugin on the creation kit again ... you will have to do all the steps whenever you want to edit your modI tried these steps and they worked for me ... hope they work for you too ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobBruce Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 Thanks for the info I'm sure it will help out some people, although I was able to fix my problem without the CK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guerlot Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 Thanks for the info I'm sure it will help out some people, although I was able to fix my problem without the CK.Would you mind sharing what you did to fix it? Tks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacobBruce Posted August 18, 2017 Author Share Posted August 18, 2017 I didn't find an alternative way to solve the CK issue, I just realized that I could fix the bug in my mod without the CK. It is my first mod and I didn't realize that the scripts are completely separate from the esp, I thought I needed the CK to update the scripts in the esp but they don't get embedded into the esp. However there is an alternative solution, which is to download the last version of the CK if you can find it and use the exe file from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrendonLeCount Posted August 18, 2017 Share Posted August 18, 2017 It sounds like they're phasing out the .esp. New mods should either be .esms if they're big (or in danger of becoming big), or .esls if they're small. Most mods end up being treated as masters as soon as compatibility patches come into play, so they should probably have been .esms to begin with. Form count is a more logical thing to create a divide around, since most files can potentially need to be treated as masters. Maybe they'll start letting us edit .esms without having to rename (it sounds like you no longer need to set the .esm flag.) As for dependencies upon .esls, I'm guessing the compression process leaves previously compressed form IDs alone when you recompress after adding new forms. If not you'd have problems with rearranged form IDs, which seems needlessly... stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mebantiza Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 (edited) This issue is causing me problems as well. Atm, I am working on a compatibility file (Skyrim 32). In my case, I need to physically move around some items another mod adds. After I move the items in question to their new spots, save the changes, the file, like everyone reports, has both mods stripped out as masters, which ensures it no longer works. Irritating, the only 'solution' I can think of that might work, is to record the precise location I need to move the items to, then enter the co-ords in manually in xedit. That way at least, the ESP won't get fubared by the CK. Talk about tedious though, I am kind of stalled atm on my file over this issue.... Edited August 28, 2017 by Mebantiza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanOstrus Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 This issue is causing me problems as well. Atm, I am working on a compatibility file (Skyrim 32). In my case, I need to physically move around some items another mod adds. After I move the items in question to their new spots, save the changes, the file, like everyone reports, has both mods stripped out as masters, which ensures it no longer works. Irritating, the only 'solution' I can think of that might work, is to record the precise location I need to move the items to, then enter the co-ords in manually in xedit. That way at least, the ESP won't get fubared by the CK. Talk about tedious though, I am kind of stalled atm on my file over this issue.... Or load your backup of the creationkit exe file and use the older version. Or rename the master esp's to esm and edit the header of the mod to point to the "esm" files, just remember to change it back and rename the files back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thuggysmurf Posted December 1, 2017 Share Posted December 1, 2017 Anybody know how to get a copy of Creation Kit v.1.8.10? i.e. the version before Bethesda FUBAR'd mod dependencies with v1.10.15. I unfortunately did not save my v1.8.10 backup. Edit: Was able to get it to work using the steps in Sabrine's 8/18/17 post above, however each time I make a change and want to test it in game, the following process is required: Add the created dummy .esm file to the data folder, Open FO4Edit, Alter file header names (esp to esm), Close FO4Edit, Open CK, make changes, Close CK, Open FO4Edit, undo alter file header names (esm to esp), Close FO4Edit, remove the dummy .esm file from the data folder, open game and test, close game, rinse and repeat. To whoever at Bethesda either green-lighted this or failed to catch it, you're still leaps and bounds better than EA, but I gotta ask: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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